What Do You Think Of The "Tommy Was 9 In The Independence War" Thing I Personally Like It Since I Adds

What do you think of the "Tommy was 9 in the independence war" thing i personally like it since i adds more reason why Tommy feels the need to resort to violence but the pet peeve of mine is the "Dream was 13" because that gives dream apologist a reason to defend him so that's why I raise the "Dream is a Cryptid creature and ages abnormally" theory :D

@taiyoandluna09 it's based on the fact that fundy said that there were 8 years between the founding of l'manberg to sometime after doomsday (I don't remember the exact date, but it was in the aftermath !), while tommy was canonically confirmed to be 16 during his trial leading into his exile when the terms for his probation/exile were set until he was 18 and he said that that was 2 years away (and again, when his 17th birthday stream was semi-canon)

the thing about that is, different streamers just kind of say things without talking to other streamers about it, and most of the time other streamers aren't even aware that it's been said lfjkdsa fundy especially likes adding strange time skips, for instance the 8 year thing came when he took a break after doomsday and canonized that his character had been gone for a full year soul searching.

sometimes this is unobtrusive enough that it doesn't Really matter (tommy has canonized that his exile lasted months, which other characters weren't really aware of at the time. but it doesn't really interfere with the timeline of anything that happened beyond making tubbo's lack of visiting read worse), but sometimes it can outright contradict or complicate other people's canons.

so the way I've taken to handling it is pretending everyone is in their own timeline bubble, kind of like wilbur's time dilation in limbo. fundy experienced that period of time for 8 years, while any creator whose canon contradicts that has experienced that time differently.

on that note, wilbur and tommy have said that the pogtopia v manberg war took place over about 2 years, and while we can't be sure how long the l'manberg revolution was supposed to be, it was definitely much shorter. taking that into account with tommy's canon age being set at 16 when he was exiled and I think you can read him as having been 13 to 14 during the revolution. which is much more reasonable than him having been 9 fjksldaghjfdsa

the thing about 9 year olds is that you very much so know that they are 9 years old. you wouldn't put a 9 year old on a horse, let alone lead them into battle. it changes the entire dynamic of the situation if people were letting a 9 year old fight a war and fighting a 9 year old In war. not that a 14 or even 16 year old doesn't have that problem, but it's much less exaggerated by comparison. someone who's half your height challenging you to a duel to the death reads different from someone who's just baby faced doing the same.

also that 9 year old would have to be jacked to hell to do the things that tommy did, which I do not want to think about.

so ! probable 13 to 14 year old tommy and tubbo based on the manberg timeline set by wilbur and tommy. which is plenty angst material while also being slightly more reasonable (slightly being the key term here).

as for dream being 13 (or in this case 17 to 18, which honestly seems pretty reasonable), it mostly just exists to point out how silly tommy being 8 reads but it's technically not based in canon. the minors are all the same ages as their characters because both the adults and the minors have stated that they'd be uncomfortable with minors roleplaying adults. but the adults don't really have that same restriction.

wilbur's character is currently in his 40's in canon and he has an adult child and philza is hundreds of years old. dream doesn't have a canon stated age as far as I'm aware (most characters don't, technoblade could be 21 or 210) the 13 number is based on dream the streamer's age rather than dream the character. maybe dream would've been 13 if tommy was 8, maybe he would've been 47, we don't know.

though for my last point, I do want to say that I don't really like the idea that we have to age tommy down to "explain" tommy's "violence." I really don't think it's necessary within the context of canon. this is pretty long so I'm gonna put it under a cut

stealing and griefing are completely normalized actions on the dream smp, and possibly in greater canon beyond that since it's normalized to the extent that it is here. tommy's house was griefed near daily before l'manberg was created (often times by dream) and his shit was and is constantly stolen. tommy's griefing and stealing is not only completely normal in the context of the world that he lives in, it's very often tamer than other people's, even before l'manberg.

when he felt like he'd gone too far in burning tubbo's base he apologized immediately and gave tubbo practically all of the diamonds he had to make up for it. this image of tommy as having been selfish and having to learn to be better is manufactured by a fandom that doesn't seem to be aware of the climate of the server.

as for Outside of the griefing and stealing? the l'manbergians had a policy Against violence during the original l'manberg war, which was broken Because of the smp. and still it was nearly completely one sided. the smp were the ones destroying bases, stealing supplies, spawn killing, and enlisting spies. and tommy very famously used his Words to end the war. (tommy also got his position as wilbur's right had after dream grieffed tommy's base, and tommy deliberately refused to do the same to him after wilbur gave him permission to do so as a test).

and in pogtopia v manberg tommy did his absolute best to Avoid violence and killing and to protect his friends. he literally Constantly was enforcing the idea that nobody had to get hurt, nothing had to be destroyed, they just needed to take their home back. it was the key conflict between him and wilbur + technoblade.

and what came after that?

trauma from wilbur's death, trauma from months of abuse in tommy's exile, trauma from his falling out with techno, trauma from doomsday, trauma from the disc war finale, trauma from being trapped with his abuser for 3 weeks and killed for months, trauma from watching ghostbur die right in front of him and having someone he trusted turn around and threaten him for it.

tommy isn't an innocent angel that can do no wrong when he's in the right state of mind, but he doesn't intentionally hurt anyone when he is. it is Only when he's experiencing overwhelming trauma that he doesn't know how to process or escape that he lashes out, and even then that lashing out is made into more than it was pretty consistently by the fandom.

tommy killing jack during his exile is obviously, Uh, Pretty Fucking Bad. but tommy was completely unaware that jack had actually died. people killing each other Non-canonically to make them lose their things is a dick move, but it's also pretty normalized behavior on the smp. tommy immediately apologized to jack and tried to explain that he was in a bad headspace because he'd caught up to what he'd done and immediately regretted it, but it obviously wasn't enough because tommy thought he was just apologizing for making jack lose his things while jack had been Murdered.

this would continue and worsen when tommy stayed with technoblade and started lashing out more consistently. the important thing to understand about this is at this point tommy has recognized that he's actively suicidal and that dream had been there to watch him, but he had Not broken out of dream's abuse completely. he went back and forth on whether or not dream was his friend, whether or not he wanted to see him. he Knew that he was confused but he didn't know what to do about that.

and the thing is, tommy's lashing out is due pretty much completely to the fact that dream had done the work to convince him that everyone he's ever loved has never cared about him, which his reactions to oscillate between self hatred (and outright suicidal tendencies) and anger. technoblade outright encouraged both the idea that his friends were bad people And that anger reaction. their entire team up was framed in terms of getting revenge and techno completely reinforces this idea multiple times while trying to convince tommy to help him destroy l'manberg.

tommy leans into more violent tendencies both has a coping mechanism to help him Survive (pushing that anger and hurt outward rather than inward) and worsens those tendencies by the enabling of an adult figure who at that point was his only source of stability like, At All.

that said, even though he did bad things while he was with techno, he Never got to the point where he would've been okay with someone dying or with destroying l'manberg. even with the scene that technoblade tried to convince him to do exactly that he clearly and obviously emphasized that l'manberg was his and tubbo's home, how he didn't want them to get hurt. he obviously didn't Want l'manberg gone, but he wanted the friendship that techno offered him in exchange for helping destroy it.

he pulled himself out of this spiral when he hit his own limits, when he said something that hurt tubbo in a way that struck a cord with him. at which point he Immediately apologized and gave everything up to switch sides. he'd go on to continue apologizing, making the active choice to grow and choose kindness over revenge, leading up to both doomsday and the disc war finale. it was the entire Message of the disc war finale, they were saved because they made and tended to connections with other people.

tommy went out of his way to find and return mars to sapnap during doomsday, he apologized for ever making him lose something that he loved just because he'd been hurt. and he asked sapnap to join them, which he did. and when dream tried to make one last rush towards tubbo when everyone came out of that portal it was Sapnap who stepped between them and told dream to "Get away from them."

after that tommy went out of his way to try to avoid any conflict and violence. he roleplayed animal crossing while building his hotel for a month, multiple characters tried to pull him into the egg plot and he refused because he didn't want to make people upset. he was legitimately just minding his own business while people plotted his death around him.

the One instance that people point towards after this point is pussboy, and honestly at this point I'm going to kill that cat myself.

here's some things to note: 1: killing pets is normalized on the server, it's not a very nice thing to do but it's very easy to do by accident because they aren't sentient and everyone is playing a video game. literally every single character has killed someone's pet, usually multiple (especially multiple if you're sapnap). dream killed mushroom henry in front of tommy's face, he's killed tubbo's bees in front of tommy's face. tommy had been actively Warning tubbo against showing dream that he cared about his animals because he knew that that dream would hurt them for that reason, which he did.

2: killing pussboy Was an accident. he was trying to get pussboy to move onto the floor, and the only action you have to try to move an animal in minecraft is punching. he Did say "that's what happens when you care about something," but that doesn't make the action intentional

3: dream had been retraumatizing tommy on purpose for an entire week without any way of escape. dream had a history of killing tommy's pets, destroying his things, and trying to take everything he loves away from him. he took all of tommy's friends away through isolation, and then tried to do it again by killing tubbo directly in front of him and putting him in a black box forever to shake around like a bug forever. tommy completely suspects that dream got him trapped there on purpose (which he's right about). "that's what happens when you care about something" is a Reaction to dream doing much much worse to him Consistently, it's tommy trying to get dream to understand even an ounce of the kind of pain that he intentionally put tommy through (and would Continue to put tommy through)

4: no, pussboy is not the last thing that dream ever cared about. dream systematically cut off every attachment he ever had outside of tommy specifically so his attachments could never be used against him, do you think that he's going to break that for a random cat and then Openly Admit To It without a second thought to make himself completely vulnerable to the one person that he is literally obsessed with having complete control over? no, no he would not.

dream's reaction was understated and he didn't bring the cat back to life despite obviously having the full ability to do so (he canonically brought henry back from the dead for his attachments museum, it was completely possible, meaning it was a choice not to). dream didn't kill tommy out of his grief for Tommy's Own Cat (that's why it teleported to the cell, it was his), he killed tommy because tommy questioned the validity of the revival book which was dream's leverage over tommy. dream Admitted to killing tommy to make a point when tommy was brought back.

so ! presenting this as uniquely violent and using it in constant meta to justify why tommy is a bad person is Completely disconnected from the rest of the server and from dream himself. we Are supposed to understand that tommy killing pussboy was a bad thing. however. what it's meant to tell us is that being trapped with dream puts tommy in a worse mindset and pushes him to do things that he wouldn't normally do. dream makes tommy Worse, which is something that tommy actively stated in those prison streams. his lashing out was due to the Extreme trauma of the situation, not any inherent violence that has to be explained.

so no, I don't think we have to say that tommy was 9 for his actions to make sense. tommy's actions are largely normalized in the world that he exists in and the points where we see him genuinely lashing out to hurt people are the result of genuine trauma that he's been trying to make an active effort to grow from, which he's Consistently made the effort to apologize. the only time he Didn't apologize for was dream, which he was a little distracted being murdered and then having his life and death held over his head.

and no, tommy trying to murder dream doesn't fall under this. he wants to kill dream because dream wants to use the revival book to torture everyone else, which is something that he's said outright to tommy's face while proclaiming himself a god. death was the worst thing that tommy had ever experienced, he doesn't Want dream to die and the doesn't think killing dream is the right thing to do, but dream Will hang death over everyone in the server if he ever gets out. so tommy sees killing dream as the only option, especially now that he's (rightfully) lost faith in sam and the prison. that isn't tommy being a violent person, that's tommy putting himself in a self-sacrificial position to try to save the rest of the server, Again.

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: tommy isn’t a uniquely violent character, he’s a uniquely punished character.

tommy doesn’t grief more than other people, he doesn’t kill more than other people, he doesn’t steal more than other people, he doesn’t cause conflicts more than other people (being involved is not the same as causing), but while other characters have faced consequences in the sense of revenge (think the pet wars) tommy is the only character that has Consistently faced consequences in the form of being punished from a place of authority.

people in the fandom treat tommy differently because the Narrative treats tommy differently, however the whole point of this narrative is that it’s unfair.

dream targeted tommy with exile because he wanted to hurt him, dream’s done worse to george himself and had actively been trying to frame tommy to get him exiled a week before. other characters have started blaming tommy for what’s happened because dream painted tommy as the center of all of their problems (dream holding l’manberg hostage to exile tommy, lying about the community house, announcing that he’s going to destroy l’manberg because tommy told tubbo to give him his disc, doomsday being centered around tommy despite techno planning to destroy it before tommy had teamed up with him). dream hurts people and tries to find a way to blame tommy to put a wedge between him and them, to hurt tommy with his attachments to other people and hurt people with their attachment to tommy. he’s being Unfair and tommy recognized that all the way back at the trial.

and the thing is? tommy’s still grown as a person. he’s Apologized, he’s made an active effort to change his behavior and try to stay out of trouble, and dream is Still hurting him. Still targeting him.

the argument that tommy being traumatized/a child/abused/etc not being an excuse, that he deserves to be punished for his actions, falls flat because he’s the Only character being asked to do so for the actual “crimes” that he’s committed. no one else is held to the same standard that he is, both in the lore and by the fandom. it’s not that tommy is flawless or that he’s never done anything wrong, it’s that no one’s Ever insisted that sapnap needs to be punished for griefing, that Tubbo needs to be punished for burning people’s things, or even Dream for having been the center of conflicts long before tommy showed up and long after.

it’s a double standard that sits Wrong. wrong because tommy’s made an active effort to apologize, to grow, to be a better person, and was still demonized by the fandom while it was happening and accused of never learning.

wrong because he’s been uniquely hurt in a way that no one on the server has been in the name of “punishing” him, and I think at that point we have to ask if “punishment” is something that he really needs let alone Deserves.

and Wrong because the logic and reasoning that we use to get there, to Get at the idea that he deserves punishment when other characters do not, stems from the same logic that his abuser used to justify his abuse.

if tommy was a side character whose personality wasn’t Any different he’d never be treated this way by the fandom, he’d never be demonized the way that he is. you can think that he’s annoying without thinking that he should suffer or without trying to justify it by pinning him down as morally in the wrong somehow. likewise he isn’t actually More guilty than anyone else is just because another character says that he is

My opinion on the exile arc/the only right opinion /hj

*taps mic*

*leans in closely to the mic*

I want to start this with saying this is all /rp and fictional. If I forget to add a c! in front of something I’m just stupid, not talking about the irl content creators.

Also I’m writing this cause the people in Michealmcchill’s chat were being questionable and defending c!Dream by saying:

“C!TOMMY DESERVED IT.”

“C!TOMMY IS NOW WORSE THAN C!DREAM”

and so on and so forth so here I am to show you all that victim blaming is a very shitty thing to do. 

DISCLAIMER: NO HATE TO THE CC IF ANY OF YOU HATE ON HIM I WILL PISS ALL OVER YOUR FLOORS. THERE WERE ONLY A FEW PEOPLE IN THE CHAT SAYING THIS SO DON’T TAKE WHAT I SAY HERE AND GENERALIZE THE ENTIRE CHAT KAPEESH?

First of all I wanna say that c!Dream is a canonical child abuser. I do not want anyone to fight me on that, especially not C!Dream apologists. Your meow meow is obsessed with a 17 year old and has traumatized him several times. He is not hot, he is evil. If you say it was C!Tubbo’s fault- god forbid you say C!Tommy deserves it or that C!Tommy is worse than C!Dream. I will pull a C!Quackity and consume your myocardium.

I also wanna say that the conditions surrounding c!Tommy’s probation were litterally “If he makes the tiniest step in the wrong direction he will be exiled.” Need I remind you that c!Tommy had been framed for multiple griefs. George’s house wasn’t “the last straw” it was an oppurtunity.

(Side note: Didn’t George fix his house in like fifteen minutes? Didn’t Sapnap or Karl also grief his house later on? I’m pretty sure they did.)

Also not sure if you knew this but exile wasn’t an exile. It was a kidnapping. c!Dream straight up told Tommy he wouldn’t be allowed to leave logstedshire. c!Dream destroyed c!Tommy’s items to keep him dependant on c!Dream. c!Dream kept people from visiting c!Tommy to isolate him and convince him (c!Tommy) that no one cared for him. Also remeber all those moments when C!Dream got angry and hit c!Tommy with his axe? 

*looks at camera*

Please go ahead defend c!dream. I. Dare. You.

(Don’t actually it makes me so mad to see people defend all the messed up shit he does.)

My point is 

👏 ABUSE 👏 IS 👏 NEVER 👏 EVER 👏 EVER 👏 WARRANTED👏

“c!Tommy is annoying he had what was coming to him”

He’s loud and swears alot, sometimes he scams others as bits. 

That’s his streaming persona if you don’t like it that’s okay- just say you don’t like it (or just like don’t hate on it at all) and move on. 

You don’t need to complain about his character. Especially when he puts time and effort into writing his character. Also that argument holds little weight on the dream smp.

“C!Techno is such a softy with his friends and animals!”

*C!Techno blows up a kid via fireworks, then turns around and murders an entire crowd of people. Then complains about the situation not being in his control and brushes it off before beating up another kid in a pit.*

(No hate to C!Techno btw I’m just using him as an example to prove how dumb this argument is)

“But c!Dream was just doing what he needed to do.” 

We’ve been over this c!Dream has an unhealthy obsession with c!Tommy do you want proof?

https://youtu.be/E_ljoW7noZA 

https://youtu.be/sYWs7zme-eI?t=2452

https://youtu.be/NXjBPTKnQUI

“TOMMY… and Wilbur…”

“L’man-child-burg”

He barley tries to hide it that he cares more about hurting Tommy more than the actual leader of the revolution.

Gonna re state my point. Dream wanted to isolate Tommy and train him into being someone who no longer has the will to fight back. That isn’t “doing what you need to do” that just feels like excessive and unusual cruelty.

“Tommy causes all the problems on the server.”

*gestures to sapnap and ponk fighting and griefing eachother before Tommy got on the server actually causing the start of the disc war* 

(very long story, I haven’t watched the vod but from my knowlegde ((Given to me by some og’s and summaries)) it goes: Sapnap and ponk prank each other > Sapnap get’s Tommy on his side to help him > Dream targets Tommy thinking that’ll stop the conflict even despite ponk and sapnap stoping it> Dream steals Tommy discs>disc war)

*Gestures to the c!Fundy and c!Tubbo civil war*

*Geatures to the butcher army*

*GESTURES TO THE EGG*

“Tommy deserved to be exiled but not the abuse that came with exile.”

We’ve 

been 

over 

this

so 

many

times

please

stop

talking

and 

re-read this or go ask anybody who has a good understanding of the smp. I’m so tired of repeating myself.

Also this is just a list of what c!Dream has done to c!TOMMY in EXILE, he’s done so much more terrible things. Not just to Tommy but to almost everyone.

I love (/p) c!Dream, not because he’s a good person (He’s a terrible person and I hate him /lh) but because he’s a terrifying villain who even at his lowest he seems invincible. He is a perfect villain. NOT A HERO. NOT MISUNDERSTOOD. He is the villain. You don’t need to defend a character’s actions to like them.

Also please don’t call him hot- if killing children in confined spaces with a potatoes is hot than I worry for our society /lh

Sorry for any bad grammar or spelling mistakes it’s 1am on a school night and I not smart enough to be compentent/functioning person. *unplugs mic and politely hands it off to a staff member*

Feel free to add on or anything however I may delete this post in the morning if I hate how it looks grammatically or spelling-ly (asdfghjkl).

*Unplugs mic and politely hands it to a staff member*

(x) (x) (x) (x) (x) (x) (x) (x) (x) 

I just wanted to share the Instagram announcement, because of the bit at the end.

Eric Carle’s Instagram is full of art, if you want to check that out. Here’s one I thought was nice.