There Always Comes A Time In Life (AO3 Is Down) Where You Have To Return To Your Origins (FFnet And If

There always comes a time in life (AO3 is down) where you have to return to your origins (FFnet and if I'm very desperate... Wattpad)

We wouldn’t be going through this bullshit if Rhaenys was queen to begin with.

post-crisis batkid canonical ages

“It’s impossible to figure out comic book timelines” - people who are not me and who I cannot relate to. I have crafted this, a coherent, canon-compliant timeline. A quick preface:

This is all for the Post-Crisis (i.e. New Earth/1986-2011/Pre-Flashpoint/pre-reboot/“preboot”/best) continuity.

My main principle here is diegetic evidence from comics >>>> evidence from supplemental materiel (like calendars, timelines from secret files & origins, character encyclopedias, etc)

Second principle is that mentions of ages, birthdays > mentions of time passed > non-birthday month placements (e.g. the start of school years).

We’re going to go youngest to oldest, because it actually makes more sense that way.

Damian is 10-11 at the end of preboot.

Damian’s birthday is not given in Post-Crisis.

Damian is 10 when he becomes Robin, per Batman and Robin vol 1 #1. He is still 10 in Batgirl vol 3 #17. That is the last time I am aware of where his age is said, so he may or may not have turned 11 in the short remaining time before Flashpoint.

Tim is about 7 years older than Damian. He is 17 at the end of preboot.

Tim’s birthday is July 19th (Robin #116).

Tim turned 16 in R#116, before the One Year Later event (where, as you may guess, a year passed), meaning he is at least 17 after OYL. Tim is still 17 in Red Robin #25. Damian becomes Robins between these events, meaning Tim is 17 when Damian is 10, and they are ~7 years apart.

RR#25 is the penultimate issue of Red Robin. Coupled with the significance of an 18th birthday and the fact that we never see one, there is virtually no chance that Tim turned 18 before Flashpoint. He’s 17.

Stephanie is <1 year older than Tim. Steph is 18 at the end of preboot.

Stephanie’s birthday is not given in Post-Crisis.

Stephanie was 15 when she first became Spoiler, per her recounting the story in Secret Origins 80-Page Giant. She is still 15 in Robin #59. In between these events, Tim is stated as 14 in Robin #43. Therefore, Stephanie is older. Stephanie “died” when she is 16, per the last story in Batman Allies Secret Files and Origins, between R#116 and OYL, meaning Tim was also 16. That makes her less than a year older.

She is also one grade above Tim, starting college in Batgirl vol 3 #1, shortly before it’s confirmed by Red Robin #17 that Tim (had he not dropped out) should be a senior in high school.

Stephanie starts college in Batgirl vol 3 #1, and we have every reason to believe she is starting at the "normal” time, making her 18. Since Tim is 17 at the end of Post-Crisis, and Steph is less than a year older, she can’t be any older than 18.

Jason is 1 year, 11 months, 3 days older than Tim. Jason is 19 at the end of preboot.

Jason’s birthday is on August 16th (Detective Comics #790).

No ambiguity here! Tim and Jason are exactly 702 days apart, unless Tim was born on or right after a leap year, making it 703. We know this because Jason’s 18th birthday is on August 16th in DC#790, which occurs after R#116 and Tim’s 16th birthday, but before OYL where Tim turns 17. This means Jason must have turned 18 when Tim was 16.

Jason’s age is never explicitly said after his return. But because his birthday comes after Tim’s, and Tim is still 17 at the end of preboot, we can be completely confident that Jason is still 19.

Cass is 6 months, 21 days older than Jason. Cass is 19-20 at the end of preboot.

Cassandra’s birthday is on January 26th (Batgirl vol 1 #33).

Cass turned 18 in Batgirl #37, shortly before both R#116 and DC#790, meaning before Tim turned 16 and Jason 18. This is well after No Man’s Land, so we can be certain Tim is long-since 15 (see below cut), and since her birthday is in January, we can also be certain Jason is long-since 17. This means Cass is less than a year older than Jason.

Cass’s age is also never said towards the end of preboot, but can be estimated via Jason (via Tim). Knowing Jason is 19 and Cass is 7 months older, we know she must be 19-20 at the end of preboot. However, since her birthday is before Tim’s, we cannot say if it’s passed to be more specific than that.

Dick is probably 6 years, 4 months, 26 days older than Jason (5 years, 10 months, 6 days older than Cass). He is 25-26 at the end of preboot.

Dick’s birthday is complicated, but imo the best bet for Post-Crisis is March 20th (see below cut).

Dick’s age is extremely messy, but here goes. Dick is 19 when Bruce fires him (Batman #419) and Jason is at most 12 when Bruce finds him shortly after (see below). Dick turns 20 while Jason is Robin (Secret Origins vol 2 #13 and New Teen Titans vol 2 #18). Dick is at most 21 in Deathstroke vol 1 Annual #1, after Tim is introduced. This means Dick is 20-21 when Tim is introduced at 13. The ONLY possible way to make all those ages work is for Dick to be ~6.5 years older than Jason, ~8.5 years older than Tim.

Dick’s age is not really said after that, except the vague mention in Nightwing vol 2 #134 that the time around his 17th birthday was “almost ten years” ago. This fits with what his age should logically be based on the difference to Tim, and we can confidently put him at 25-26 at the end of preboot.

A detailed timeline, references, and explanations of what was included or had to be ignored under the cut:

Seguir leyendo

tim: so... yeah. i'll totally understand if you want nothing to do with that

kon, who was barely listening bc he was too busy observing the baby in his arms: excuse me?

tim: i mean, he's the consequences of MY actions, which makes him MY problem, not yours. so if you'd like to tap out, that's totally fine

kon:

tim:

kon: did you just called my son a problem

tim: i- wtf do you mean "my son" he's MINE give him back- KON EL KENT GET BACK HERE AND HAND ME MY CHILD

Ooh could you debunk the myths regarding Tim’s childhood? I see a lot of Fanon claiming that he was home alone for years and didn’t have anyone to take care of him.

[low budget mythbusters intro here]

Sure thing; I’d love to! It’s been less than a month, so this counts as prompt, right? The fanony picture of Tim’s childhood is built from a couple pieces, so I’m going to go through each of them with as much citation as I can get. For the spoilery preview:

Tim’s parents did travel a lot and leave him behind

Tim’s parents loved him

Tim did not spend a bunch of time alone in a big house with no one looking after him (boarding school!!!!!)

I’m gonna get into a full examination of how well supervised Tim was

And finally some notes on what characterization I think can be pulled from/connected to this!

✓ Tim’s Parents Were Absent & Traveled Regularly

True! Things changed with Jack after Janet died, but before Tim became Robin, these two spent a lot of time out of town, and not much time with their son. Tim references his parents “always traveling” for work in his introductory storyline in Batman #441, and in Robin vol 1 #1 muses: “So many times they traveled the world and left me behind.”

At least by the time Tim is training as Robin, he doesn’t always know where his parents are at any given time (see Batman #444, #445). And, considering that they aren’t in town for the entire period of weeks/months he spends in training, we know they take very long trips. Tim makes this clear in Detective Comics #618, after getting a post card: “‘Or the week after.’ I guess that sums them up! Never know where they’re going to be--or when--or even how long!”

We never get a straight up number for how much time the Drakes spend out of town or if it’s always been at a constant level. But we do know from Robin #100 that they have been traveling at least since “grade school.”

Tim is really hurt by this! In Batman #480 (soon after his mother’s death, just after his father has recovered from his coma) he writes a “letter” to his dad to get his feelings out before burning it, about how it hurt when they traveled, and how his dad doesn’t really know him anymore. “When I was a kid, I used to dream—to pray—that you and mom would stop traveling, forget business and just settle down,” and, “Funny how once you never seemed to care—at least, you never showed me that you did,” and, “I’ve no idea who you think I am, Dad—but I’m not that boy.” To Bruce, he says, “I’ve never felt I was part of a family before.”

Tim ultimately does decide he wants to try with his dad, but they end up fighting in Robin III: Cry of the Huntress #4, with all Tim’s resentment bubbling up:

[panels from Robin iii #4. Jack: “I’ve never been so disappointed in you until now. What’s happened to you? You’re not the son I know.” / Tim: “Who is the son you know, dad? You don’t know me. You never bothered. You shipped me from one boarding school to another and nobody paid any attention as long as my grades stayed high. You and mom were too involved running around the world. Your careers.” / Jack: “Don’t think you can talk to me like that just because I’m in this chair. Just because I’m not like Bruce Wayne...” / Tim: “At least Bruce cares about me. Not just how I reflect on him! You don’t know me! You don’t know a thing about me!”]

I’m actually tentative about including that fight, though, because I feel like a lot of people take it out of the greater context, and also take everything Tim says very literally. Don’t get me wrong--the Drakes absolutely neglected him, and all of his hurt is very valid. But, e.g., that accusation that Jack only cares about how Tim reflects on him is Tim making big declarations in anger, not some grand word of god about Jack’s characterization. (When seeing panels out of context, always keep in mind who is saying what, why, to who, and how they feel in the moment they say it!) Tim’s parents made him feel like they didn’t know or care about him beyond his grades? True, valid, and horrible parenting from them. Tim’s parents actually not caring about him beyond their image? Not so much, but I’ll get to that later.

Tim’s feelings about his parents shift more positive once his dad starts sticking around, and by Robin #100--in-universe, a few years later--Tim is more focused on the good times:

[a panel from Robin #100. Tim's narration reads: “We always walked this way from our condo to the opera, way back when. We almost never used our city place except when we were going to operas, galleries, or downtown stuff like that. Most parents wouldn’t bring the kid along to such tres-haute affairs. I have to admit, when mom and dad weren’t off traveling, they did their best to include me in everything.]

(Things shift enough through Tim’s time as Robin that, full disclosure, I was genuinely surprised to remember some stuff when I went back to research for this post.)

So the Drakes were home to spend time with Tim sometimes. There is, of course, that trip to the circus (Batman #441, Secret Origins 80-Page Giant). Those same issues also have panels with the Drakes at home in the background when Tim is nine and figuring out Batman and Robin’s identities. And that panel from Robin #100 references time spent together at operas and galleries and similar outings.

While we’re at it, the one thing I couldn’t find any hint of whatsoever...was galas. There’s really nothing to indicate that the Drakes were particularly into high society, or had any strong attachment to their “image,” if that note of breaking convention by taking their kid to fancy exhibits is any indication.

✗ Tim’s Parents Didn’t Care About Him

Extremely false! While it doesn’t make their parenting any better, it is made consistently clear that Tim’s parents do love him. It’s kind of their one consistent redeeming quality.

Janet has extremely few appearances, but when Tim thinks of her (or occasionally dreams/hallucinates), she gets a kind portrayal. And in the one real scene we have of her with Tim--the trip to the circus--she’s very warm and motherly, worrying Tim will be overwhelmed, getting a picture with the Graysons to make sure it’s a fun experience, and trying to stop him from seeing the bodies after the Graysons die (see Batman #436, #441).

Jack has a lot more material to go off of, since he was alive for the majority of Tim’s tenure as Robin. After Janet’s death, Jack stays in Gotham, is consistently physically around, and always very worried whenever Tim is or seems to be in danger. (Yes, that’s a low bar for parenting, but he can at least step over it.) Jack has a lot of flaws still--anger that he takes out on Tim, an apparent unwillingness to actually understand his son, a continued reliance on (threats of) boarding school as a solution to troubled behavior--but he does love Tim.

imo: Jack would sacrifice his life to save Tim without any hesitation whatsoever...but he would probably never cancel plans to spend time with Tim.

Jack and Janet love Tim and thoroughly care about his well-being! But they assume he’s largely fine (per Tim’s claims in that first panel, perhaps assuming that as long as his grades are good, all must be swell), don’t give him very much attention, and fail to prioritize him.

✗ Tim Was Constantly Home Alone

False! “But you said his parents were always traveling!” you cry. I did, but the magic words here are boarding school.

In that first panel above, Tim references being shipped from boarding school to boarding school his whole life, and he is actively enrolled in “a boarding school outside Gotham City” (per Batman #441) when he’s first introduced. His early training as Robin was done with Alfred chauffeuring him to and from school on weekends.

Only after Jack wakes up does Tim successfully campaign to be transferred to a local public school, and by that point Jack is consistently at home. Over the 10+ irl years before Jack’s death I can only think of three occasions he traveled without Tim (though I may be missing another one or two), as well as one time he traveled with Tim--a huge change from before Janet’s death. In DCU Holiday Bash #1, Tim and Jack head to the Caribbean for the holidays together. Jack and new girlfriend Dana take a weekend trip to what sounds like a local lake in Robin # (bailing on Tim in the process); Jack goes to an archeological dig before his wedding to Dana in Robin 80-page Special; and he and Dana get stuck at an airport on their way home from an unspecified trip in DCU Holiday Bash #3, failing to get home by Christmas despite their plans.

By those later trips, Tim is old enough to be fine alone for a weekend. I say none of this to diminish the emotional neglect, but just to say there’s no sign of Tim being left to physically fend for himself for too long or at too young an age.

On Supervision

Here’s where I run down all of Tim’s supervision or lack thereof before his father takes a more active role. tl;dr: I’d argue that Tim was almost certainly never just left to fend for himself/physically neglected, but had some talent for occasionally getting around supervision.

The biggest disclaimer is that lbr, all of this early stuff happens the way it does to make it convenient and possible for Tim to be Robin, or there would be no story.

In that Robin #100 panel above, Tim references summer breaks where his parents were in Europe, but it’s such a quick mention that there’s literally nothing to indicate whether he had supervision or of what kind.

(For anyone questioning here how Tim ~snuck into the city to take pictures of Batman and Robin~ constantly....I am sorry to inform you he didn’t. Tim says “I clipped every article I could about Batman and Robin” in LPoD and periodically references that in later stories, but no one ever mentions him sneaking around to take pictures as a kid. The only time he did take pictures of Batman is at the very beginning of LPoD, to get evidence of Batman’s decline to show to Dick.)

In A Lonely Place of Dying, Tim says that his school is on a vacation week and his parents are out of town. During this storyline, Tim is 13, gets into Gotham to take pictures of Batman, and then travels by himself to NYC to find Dick. Possibilities:

Since it’s just a week break, the school is still open and Tim is supposed to be there, but snuck out or convinced the staff he was okay to leave. (i.e., bad supervision from the school and/or cleverness from Tim) [personal headcanon]

The school is closed, but Tim had some kind of caretaker set up--again, who he tricked or skipped out on. (i.e., bad supervision from the caretaker and/or cleverness from Tim)

The school is closed, and no one is watching Tim for the week. (i.e. parents fully dropping the ball) [unlikely, as I will argue below]

Starting in Batman #443, Tim is back at school, but going to the manor on some nights and weekends, driven by Alfred. Possibilities:

Tim is sneaking out of school consistently, and no one notices. (i.e., bad supervision from the school and/or cleverness from Tim)

Tim, Bruce, and/or Alfred have convinced the school this is all chill, but Tim’s parents don’t actually know about it. (i.e., tbh it’s hard to blame the school for being outsmarted by Batman)

Tim’s parents do know and okayed it. (i.e., it’s unclear how responsible this is based on what Tim’s parents know about Bruce) [likely, per next point]

In Detective Comics #618, school is on break again, and Tim is staying at the manor with Alfred and Bruce, while his parents go from Zanzibar to Haiti. By this point, it’s confirmed that Tim’s parents knew about the arrangement, per discussion in Batman #480, which is why I think it’s likely they were aware of Tim spending time with Bruce previously, presumably with some kind of cover story.

Why were they cool with Tim temporarily living with a guy who Jack derides as a playboy (Batman #480)? Idk, man. Plot convenience. Maybe they know Bruce is a decent guy from some past experience. Maybe Tim had a great cover story. It’s never explained.

(If you’re cynical--maybe they really were wildly negligent and just let Tim spend time with some random man they didn’t know. But I think that clashes with the clear love they have for Tim; they neglect him by shipping him off to fancy boarding schools, not by throwing him to the wolves.)

Part of the reason I sincerely doubt that the Drakes would leave Tim without supervision as a kid is this brief moment:

[panels from Robin Annual #1. Jack, being wheeled out to a car, asks, “Are you sure you’ll be all right on your own, Tim?” Tim assures him that he doesn’t have to worry, and tells him to enjoy his weekend at the physio clinic.]

Tim is 13 or 14 here. Jack is going to a clinic for the weekend to help treat the injury that left him paralyzed, and is double-checking that Tim will be okay for the whole weekend. It’s a little moment, but it doesn’t seem to me like it would make sense if Tim had been regularly left alone during school breaks before.

imo: Tim undoubtedly was neglected by his parents, and regularly didn’t even have them around for school breaks, but I just can’t picture them not giving him basic nannies/babysitters/etc to take care of his physical needs.

For Your Consideration: Characterization

A lot of fic that has Tim constantly home alone during his childhood often includes a characterization of Tim as extremely lonely, anxious in social situations, and used to taking care of himself in all ways. As alternate suggestions for y’all, I present various bits of more canon characterization, and how they might tie into the backstory established here:

Tim’s friends from those various schools usually fade away after he transfers to a new school. (Practically, I’m sure this is because new writers taking over the Robin series wanted to pursue their own side characters, but lets treat it as real characterization!) With multiple boarding schools, where he would be around other kids constantly but then leave them for breaks or whenever he transferred, he’s used to relationships being temporary, and enjoys them while they last.

Tim is actually pretty confident and outgoing in social situations, and makes friends at all of the many schools his transfers to during the Robin series--perhaps because he grew up in boarding schools. (Plural!) He’s used to being around a lot of people his age, and being comfortable with a lot of new adults (e.g. boarding school RAs). He’s adaptable to social situations.

Tim regularly fails to stay in consistent contact with his friends and loved ones--partially because he’s very busy with Robin and secrecy, but even with people who know all about Robin (e.g. not talking to Stephanie for multiple weeks while they were dating, and thinking nothing of it). Perhaps a combination of boarding schools and absent parents left him with a slanted impression of how much you’re supposed to talk to the people you care about. Tim’s “low-maintenance” ...and also uncommunicative.

In Batman #441, Tim mentions having nightmares for years after the Graysons’ deaths, but never telling his parents. In Knightfall, where Tim has been left to protect Gotham alongside a new Batman, Jean-Paul Valley, who is quickly going off the rails, Tim declines to tell Bruce about his struggles or JPV’s issues at every turn. Perhaps because he’s used to being responsible for his own mental state--boarding schools have kept Tim clothed and fed, but no one was really around to take care of him emotionally.

...though Tim is still fundamentally a rich kid who was amazed by Dick’s ability to do laundry in Prodigal. He went to boarding schools, and then had a housekeeper once Jack decided to stay in Gotham. Tim takes care of himself emotionally, but he has never washed his own socks.

Tim has really conflicted feelings over his parents/childhood. He’d built up some resentment and pain and anger, but ultimately he really, really loves his parents. He feels horrible every time he and Jack fight. His ultimate dream wouldn’t be ditching his parents for greener pastures, but having his parents be home and loving and attentive.

There’s no indication Tim ever acted out for attention. Instead, he seemed to respond to parental neglect by trying to be as independent and responsible as possible. Low-maintenance! Don’t worry about me! I’m fine!