Hello!!

Hello!!

This is regarding the question which you answered about Hybe’s brand reputation and it got me thinking a little bit. Firstly, thank you for sharing your views!

When you talk about the underdog thing, it is something that i used to give a lot of thought about. I’ll be completely honest and say that the reason i was even attracted to bts’s music (back in the WINGS era) was because they were not promoted by a big company. To see them win their first daesang then was really cool and a proud moment- and thats on my genuineness. However, as you said bts are not the only ones who have had a rougher past in the entertainment industry. But i would argue that even their earlier albums did break some records and they were received well as a rookie group. So this sudden rise in popularity? I would say that luck had a BIG role to play. I wouldnt go as far to consider all their hardships a lie or an overtly made fantasy to garner fans (consider mamamoo as an example because they are very much respected in SK even tho being from a smaller company). At this point we could also consider the sagaeji rumour and the other different fanwars/ pressures from inside the industry itself. Did these actions create an averseness to the groups who were involved in it? That can also be taken as a contention, ig. Or maybe the SK media wanted to profit off the ‘rising’ stardom of bts- a pretty common thing too.

Next comes the hegemonic relationship of army- and bts. I think, to a certain extent, army as a singular entity is very much required for fighting all the racism and xenophobia that constantly surrounds bts. Being an asian, i can attest to how demeaning people can get. So, to keep the fans as a frontier is actually a very smart business choice- considering the West is pretty much in awe of the sheer vastness if the fandom which doesnt really translate to bts’s musical abilities (again, example, LGO with her 6 radio spins). What RM said, maybe its because of the fact that he knows the sort of foulness that transpires because of the sheer baseless hatred towards bts (like the jm rape thing that happened recently, and many other defamatory statements). But yes i do agree that making the fandom into a cult is not the answer.

But the crux of the hybe/ bh agenda is the fact that they give out a LOT of content. This is absolutely contrary to what happens with blackpink- who has, arguably, the second biggest fandom. Both the companies have really good business tactics but work on opposite ends. But i digress. I admit that i never really saw bts as businessmen, at least not before they explicitly mentioned in the Grammy Museum interview. That was something that kickstarted my thought process on the economics of the group. Obviously, they are working insane hours, its only fair that they get something in return. So thats one of the point i would disagree with you on. Buying material- thats on the fans. A company is here to do business- irrespective of the way it operates. At the very least we dont have an lsm (lol).

Lastly, your point of group dynamics. This is something i do strongly disagree with you on, mainly because, we as spectators have no right to speculate deeply on their relationship. I work on the assumption that all the members, they are friends. They talk about each other, they care about each other, they respect each other, their parents love the other members and whatnot. To completely disregard a relationship to vilify a company is something i do argue against. Secondly, being in close quarters, its natural that people argue and fight, so something like that again, holds no base in saying that they are not good friends.

-im sorry for the really long ask (😅), i understand its pretty ambiguous. but i love reading thru the answers on your blog so i’s be glad if you could give some opinions on this too!!!

Hi @crystal-lining ! Thanks so much for sharing your thoughts. There is a lot to unpack here and I think the readers will really enjoy reading your perspectives.

And, I don't think you're disagreeing with me re: group dynamics. I don't believe that—which I stated in the post; it was a thought exercise. Basically, if you were to find out the group wasn't as close, would it change your feelings on the brand? It's an interesting question to me.

None of this post is meant to vilify anyone. It's a discussion of marketing practices. Lots of companies skirt the lines of manipulation in marketing. The post I made is not BH = evil. Rather, I wanted to bring up ideas and perspectives that are usually ignored.

It's interesting what you say about BTS as businessmen because I think most of them are pursuing MBAs at the moment. That really shows their commitment to strengthening their activities in the business side of BH/Hybe.

This was super interesting,and the answers too. The main post deserves an essay which I’m not capable to write,but I wanna do the thought experiment at the end :) On tumblr fans might skew older,so the answers might be very different from the ones you would get on Twitter. For some very young fans,this is the 'BTS canon',and they get very upset when someone insinuates that they might not all live together,for example. But I can't blame BTS for wanting to protect their privacy and not making any statements.

The only one where I would feel upset is if they aren't close. Because then,almost all on-camera interactions we have seen between them are fake? Honestly,if they were able to act so fond of each other so well for 8 years,then they all deserve Oscars not Grammys. I don't think all of them are best friends. But that they get along well with each other,and are a genuine team,even almost family.

I don't believe any of the rest. They might have been starving,but wasn’t that because of brutal kpop diets rather than cheap healthy food not being available to them? I surely hope they didn’t go hungry during their trips,at least. I was actually relieved to see Taehyung use his own card to pay for food once in BV1. I don't think them starving brings any prestige to anyone,and it would make me hate Hybe to hear they only get to eat what they win during games.

Their future was very uncertain,being from a small company. They didn’t have the fans or the attention a group debuting from one of the BIG3 has even pre-debut. They did slowly and painstakingly build their fandom from scratch.

But they also did have some opportunities. They had good producers and choreographers,a boss who they are on good terms with,chances to perform. All the creative talent at BH who did their best to give them songs and concepts that allowed them to shine and capture the attention of fans. They had a team that actually cared about the message of the songs,which is more than half the kpop groups have,even the ones from big companies. They had a media-savvy team which capitalized on their individual and group charms. They each were lucky to have teammates they ended up having amazing synergy with. They were lucky to have Namjoon as a leader. Also,they are men. A girl group might have had a very different story,even under BH.

Knowing that doesn't make me me feel manipulated at all. I'm also extremely lucky they had these opportunities,because I can be a fan of them now and enjoy their music and content. Also,I think while the fact that they struggled is real,using the underdog story to flex in front of fans of other groups is half Army's doing. No need for BH,we can manipulate ourselves lol. Like with BE as the 'entirely-self produced' album. BTS say one thing,and Army go lachimolala with it. BTS straight up say they are not living together(Namjoon's "Yes,we are all living at the same time" answer.),but people still choose to ignore that.

During their first years I have no doubt that it was hard for them and they weren't rich by any means,but they personally never milk their own experiences for sympathy. If you once lived in a small apartment with six other people,and weren’t sure your efforts will be rewarded,and then got super rich,of course you’re going to compare your current experience with your past one. Like,wow,do you remember those times. Wow,we can't believe we got here from where we were. They are allowed to reminisce and be surprised by their own success.

But there is other stuff that might make me feel cheated if it happened: -They aren’t the ones who post on their weverse/twitter(someone else might..)

-The scripts for all the run episodes and even lives are so tight there is no room for them being themselves. We know they have scripts,but I think they’re mostly guidelines?

-if BH pushes fanservice for them in their 8th year (not Jikook,but I sometimes feel like that with Yoonmin. Like,the company knows they are a ship and they have to interact on-camera to keep the fans happy)

-Diets. Do I want to know? Jimin recently said he didn't eat for 5 days so he won't have any fat on his face in the Butter MV...Is this mandated by the company?

 -No freedom AT ALL. Yes,they’re shareholders,but they are also under a contract,and we don’t know what that contract entails.

- If they secretly hate their own songs/hate Army (not very likely)

Basically I would feel manipulated if it turned out their working conditions were worse than we expect,or if the whole foundation of who they are was fake. But I actually like that they aren’t trying hard to sell the recent content,when they look bored or when Namjoon is passive-aggressive in interviews. It allows me to know what they are really thinking. Maybe?

I’ve always wondered if people realise how Hybe (I won’t say BTS but …) is manipulative in the content they release to keep fans engaged almost 24/7. Because they are! Obviously every brand can be manipulative to a certain extent. We are customers and they need to make money 😅 but some people really do seem naive. I don’t know if it’s because I’m a bit older than the average demographic and work in Marketing but yeah - sometimes it irks me the wrong yeah. I don’t want to start drama on your blog so no need to post this if you don’t want to 😉

Hi @lololypopy ! Thanks for the Ask. And it's okay; if someone wants to start drama that's on them. We're gonna have a mature discussion.

These days, many people view marketing as manipulative because marketing is about persuading consumers they need whatever what the brand is selling: a service or a product. But many times brands are really selling ideas and values, too, and this is the case with Hybe, BH and BTS. [Hybe is the parent company, while BH is the record label and the specific brand (end product) is BTS.]

INSEAD says that marketing should be influencing not manipulation. They want marketers to make this distinction more clear, too. Manipulation for them is the use of deception or underhanded tactics to influence consumer behavior instead of using facts. Basically, if a consumer wouldn't choose a brand if they knew the truth about important aspects of the product or brand, then that is manipulation in marketing. A prime example is when Volkswagen fooled its customers into thinking its cars were more green than they were. That level of deception is also criminal.

The reason people find BH's marketing tactics manipulative is because of the false reality and social media addiction they create through their content. Content is delivered near-daily, and sometimes several times per day. This creates constant engagement, addiction and reliance on the brand as part of their consumer's daily lives. The normal and healthy boundaries between brand/consumer and artist/fan are blurred. Participation in activities related to the band becomes almost compulsive (hello, here we all are on Tumblr... lol).

It also heightens an already intense para-social relationship between consumer and brand, where the consumer becomes an object of love and appreciation of the brand ideologically (such as MOA or ARMY), which intensifies brand loyalty. There is a false sense of reciprocation there, and it is driven further through certain narratives. Being labelled as ARMY strips consumers of their identity, too. We become an unknowable collective instead of indivudals withour own needs and values. This is rather cultish, but that's a post for a different day. :D

In this type of setup, fans are made to believe they must act to defend the brand and help the brand achieve its vision. The brand's vision becomes the consumer's vision, which is genius or diabolical, depending on how you look at it.

A lot of people believe that the marketing narrative of BTS in particular was constructed well before their debut. They were setup to be the loveable underdogs that would appeal to a western market where a rags to riches story is universally loved. Do I believe this? Honestly, I don't know because it seems slightly over the top and maniacal. Like, a little too Hank Scorpio to me. But there are a couple things that leave me wondering.

One of the interesting facets of this argument is that I haven't come across any hardships BTS faced that other groups didn't also face. Their company being new and the group not being taken seriously is par for the course and lots of other groups have been through the same and were not successful. Being cut from a show at the last minute is also routine in show business. However, I imagine there are things I don't know about, so feel free to share what you know in the comments but please do so respectfully. This is an adult discussion, not fan wars, etc.

Another reason that this strategy could have been in place from the get-go is because it seems to still be in place despite incredible success. The underdog narrative is difficult to sustain in the face of success, which is perhaps ironic. Conan O'Brien is probably a great example of this. His schtick on Late Night was based around being the underdog with the low budget and the bad/weird ideas. This did not translate well to The Tonight Show, nor did any attempt to retool his persona/schtick.

Recently, there was gratitude expressed by BTS for the protection that ARMY gave the group. Personally, I'm uncomfortable with this because it furthers an unhealthy para-social realtionship that is truly unbalanced. It creates a drive for recommitment to fan labor (streaming, posting, reporting, etc), which of course the group relies on for their outstanding numbers when it comes to views, likes, streams, and ultimately record sales. It was RM who made the comment, and I was really surprised to hear it. And, as ever, it's about the way things are said. Fans should be encouraged to speak out against racism and other prejudice the group ecounters, but the idea that there is a specific protection that only the fans can give is disingenous because the vagueness of the comment can be misinterpreted to support the wealth of fan labour. Basically, it furthers radical commitment to the brand.

Now, don't come at me in the comments because I haven't said I believe this theory. It is one perspective and I do think it has valid points, but that doesn't mean it's true. Circling back to the heart of our topic, this is what I would ask: If you found out any of the following were true, how would you feel about the brand BTS? Would you still feel like supporting it, or would you feel lied to or otherwise deceived? (Keep in mind that I'm not saying these things are true AT ALL; this is a thinking exercise. Got it?)

none of the group live together (you could argue this lie provides privacy but it also creates a false reality)

they aren't all great friends

there were no hardships faced by the group that others of the same or previous generations didn't also face

they had plenty of food and ate out often, even during pre-debut (this is an interesting one because many ARMY circulate the idea that they could barely afford to live)

all of the money challenges in reality and variety programmes that made it seem like someone wouldn't eat or otherwise would suffer were fake (this is 99% likely, btw)

the group actually had opportunities that others didn't

the group has had an autonomy and freedom that other groups have never had, giving rise to more opportunities

Share your thoughts! Do you think BH and Hybe market their brands ethically? Do you ever feel manipulated? Why or why not?

he looks like a dream ♡

Two of the few certainties we have in life:

Jimin and Jungkook will share a car;

One of them will complain about having to wait for the other to finally go home.

| cr. namuspromised & qdeoks |

MAKE ME CHOOSE: blonde Hobi or blonde Jin — anonymous (cr. dwellingsouls)

Hello! I am new to BTS and apparently Suga is the love of my life (lol)! I was wondering if you’d share some of your favorite pictures and songs!

Excuse me, darling. Get in line!

Welcome to the ARMY! YES, I can share songs and pictures. ALWAYS.

I'm going to assume you mean my favorite Yoongi solo songs and photos here, so that is what I'll do. 💜 I'll add a picture per song 🥰

Gotta start off with Agust D. His first title track of his first mixtape, and a BANGER

And good lord, Yoongi in leather through the years. SIR. Sit down

The song everyone should know. Of course is Daechwita. But my god, Daechwita Yoongi has a special kind of hold on me. Will neve recover. It's been over a year and I cannot recover lol

I cannot. Sir, 2 steps back please

I am obsessed with Moonlight from him. Seriously. Sooooo freaking good. And his lyrics? He is always so so so real with us. And rhe way he just talks on the track at the start. UGHHH

What Do You Think? is on like every single Playlist I create. It's the ultimate I don't give a F song. My perfect attitude song. LOL he is such a king, I swear

The Last is such an insanely powerful song. Makes me cry. It's such an intense vulnerability that he shared with the world. He talks about the struggles and story behind his shoulder injury in here too. And I just... it's intensely emotional and powerful and musically beautiful

Intro: Nevermind is one of my favorite BTS songs. It's catchy, it's powerful, it's meaningful, it hits home. It's a power through, always get back up, don't let life stop you song. I love this man. I swear. Here is a live performance where Jhope and RM join him in it as well. I would encourage you to look up the lyrics though if you don't already know them.

First love is another song that puts me straight into an insane amount of emotion. He puts so much feeling into all his songs. Sigh. I love this one, it's softer, it's emotional, and it still hits. Again, live performance 4K fancam, look up the lyrics if you haven't seen them yet

People will make my top 10 too. I love his cadence and voice through this whole song. His lyricism is again, top notch. The way he talks about real shit all the time. His mixtapes kill me. And his mmm mmms, ugh shivers

Give It to me from his first mixtape is also a favorite of mine. It's just soooo aggressive and hits me in all the right places and is 100% him just taking over the world no matter what the world throws at him

And I have to include the Tony Montana Yoonmin stage. I have to. My 2 biases, Jimin hopping on an Agust D track, rapping. Yoongi slaying it, his voice. The flow. I watch this performance at a minimum of like 3 times a month. Lol its unhealthy, someone stop me. But also don't....

And this (minus Tony Montana) isn't even including any songs with collabs or his appearances on any other artists songs. It doesn't include any of the songs he has produced for others. My man is just dripping talent all over the place. I also have to give a special shoutout to Interlude: Shadow and Trivia: Seesaw. They are also 2 of my absolute favorites and on all my Playlists along with the above 10!

I swear, I love him so so much. It's not even funny. Thanks for the ask!! I love getting to talk about Suga and my never ending love for him 💜💜💜