I've Been Thinking Of How JC Attempts To Sacrifice Himself For WWX When They First Run From The Wens

I've been thinking of how JC attempts to sacrifice himself for WWX when they first run from the Wens after the fall of LP and his reasons/feelings for doing that and reconciling them with this person who acts so shamefully and is full of such hatred that he kills all 'demonic cultivators' after wwx's death. Even as WWX thinks of whether JC and JL are okay, I notice he calls JC "Sect Leader" out loud to others. I don't know how they could reconcile. Sorry lots of feelings.

Hi again anon 👋🏻

I've answered your two asks separately as they were addressing different aspects of the novel and my original response was getting rather long 😆

It certainly was an unexpected revelation when we found out that JC lured the searching Wen cultivators away from an unsuspecting WWX. Of course, I don't think it was his intention to get caught in the process, but he definitely thought about someone else other than himself for once - which was interesting. Although it was one of the very few selfless acts he did during the course of the novel, it still doesn't retract any of the awful things he has done, nor the way he treated WWX or his homophobic outburst.

Even after WWX has died, JC's bitterness remains very strong and he does indeed hunt down those that use the ghost path in hope of capturing WWX, should he return. Which I always find quite telling of just how little JCs actually knows and understands WWX - who would never actually do such a thing.

In all honesty, JC actually redeemed himself ever so slightly at the very end of the novel, when he decides not to tell WWX about how he really lost his golden core. Instead, he finally let him go, severing the very last thread of "debt" and "obligation" between them. It was actually a fitting character arc for him and it showed a glimmer of possible growth.

Even if JC had selfishly told WWX that particular fact, I don't think it would have changed much at all. WWX has already paid back his "debt" and "obligations" to the Jiang sect far beyond what was required or reasonable. There is nothing left to say between them and WWX literally has nothing left to give. Too much water has gone under the bridge. All of that is in the past and WWX always focuses on the present. So either way, nothing would have changed. I also think WWX would not want to associate with someone he thought his love for LWJ was disgusting and shameful regardless of anything else at play. He chooses love, happiness and freedom as his parents did before him.

JC and WWX are too different, in both personality and virtue. They would not have been friends or hung out in any other scenario bar the circumstance they found themselves in during the course of the novel. They both literally embody the traits that the other actually cannot stand! Their relationship was that of a master and subordinate, it was toxic and they are both better off giving each other a wide berth and moving on.

A reconciliation would never happen and it doesn't need to. WWX is entitled to a happy life for all his efforts in his previous life and JC needs to live with the consequences of his actions and learn from them in his own way.

I know it's probably not the response you were hoping for. But if you consider the above, they both got some form of a happy ending. JC is finally learning to let go of things that little bit more and WWX is free to move on and live his life how he always wanted. I honestly couldn't think of a more suitable and realistic ending.

You always gotta check the tags.

“Tgcf is like the trolley problem except it’s Xie Lian’s fault that everyone dies because he wants to stop the trolley.” No, Tgcf is “like” the trolley problem if the problem was that every time Xie Lian attempted to stop a trolley, the trolley owner builds another trolley and sends it hurtling down another track to mass murder another set of people to prove to Xie Lian that the only “reasonable” response to witnessing mass death occurring is to stand to the side to watch the trolley kill the people you think least deserving of life, maybe while asking the trolley driver—who wants to kill—to slow down a little (but only maybe). In that regard, the op of that wretched take and the trolley owner seem to be on the same wavelength.

Russian lies are meant not only to disinform, to make action more difficult, but also to demotivate, to make action seem senseless. Russian memes work not by presenting Russia as a positive alternative, but by demoralizing others. No one wants to be close to "Nazis," and the simple introduction of the lie is confusing and saddening. The same holds with the Russian meme to the effect that Ukraine is corrupt. A completely bogus Russian source introduced the entirely fake idea that the Ukrainian president had bought yachts. Although this was entirely untrue, Representative Greene then spread the fiction. Senator J.D. Vance also picked up the "yacht" example and used it as his justification for opposing aid to Ukraine. The larger sense of that lie is that everyone everywhere is corrupt, even the people who seem most admirable; and so we might as well give up on our heroes, on any struggle for democracy, or any struggle at all. Ukraine's president, Volodymyr Zelens'kyi, chose to risk his life by remaining in Kyiv and defending his country against a fearsome attack from Russia which almost all outsiders believed would succeed within days. His daring gamble saved not only his own democracy, but opened a window of faith that democracies can defend themselves. It confirmed the basis lesson of liberty that individual choices have consequences. The lie directed at Zelens'kyi was meant not only to discredit him personally and undermine support for Ukraine, but also to persuade Americans that no one is righteous and nothing is worth defending.

Timothy Snyder

Elizabeth Bennet: I went to Accomplished Woman Island and nobody there knew you. In fact it was uninhabited.

…. UM!

Pretty sure WoH MC wants something a lot. User than a slacker life.

Recent Chinese dramas with a nonchalant MC who just wants to slack off (but fails), gorgeous men being good bros, marvellous fighting scenes, and a heck lot of chaos: A comparison.

... Warning, rant in coming. Sorry.

Hot take, the only morally gray character in mess, that fits the exact definition of it, is Nie Huaisang.

I've seen more and more people trying to tone down Jiang Cheng's terribleness by saying that he's morally gray. I'very also seen those same people say that Wei Wuxian is morally gray because he did terrible things for good (and, no, lmao, he didn't. Most of those come from people not understanding how his cultivation works.) and that that was why he is so interesting. (Again, lmao. Lol even. Just say you don't appreciate depths and confuse "kind" with "boring", so you gotta give every character that you don't find boring a label to justify why you like them.)

I think the term "morally gray" has become a buzz word thrown around for any kind of character that isn't one dimensionally good or evil.

Jiang Cheng isn't morally gray. He is a bad person. Again, a PERSON. Not a monster, not some sort of creatures that has no concept of humanity, just. A bad person.

Society's habit of separating people that do bad things from themselves, that "us vs them" mantality, that dehumanization of bad people, it just leave a bad taste in my mouth. Even fucking serial killers have qualities, can be smart or charismatic or empathetic. Even pedophiles have hobbies and people that love them. Even rapists have people that they love and respect.

Being a terrible person doesn't mean that they're not human. There is no one in the world that has absolutely no redeeming qualities to them. But because of that separation that so many people take for the truth, because of that "they did this because they're a monster, but I'm not so I would never do this", people just cannot accept when a bad person isn't bad all the time.

They'll look at Jiang Cheng that, ultimately, loves his family and is arguably hard working, and they'll think that that means he's "morally gray", because he possesses good qualities, completely ignoring the fact that he's just a trash human being in general.

Low key, it pisses me off. Especially the people that relate so hard to him, and ask me if I wouldn't do the same in his shoes. Because no. I fucking wouldn't cause genocide. I wouldn't torture and kill complete strangers because they dared to have a surname I don't like or because they make me think of someone I resent from my past.

Like, I took can see myself in him, totally. He IS well written, and between the cartoonishly bad Xue Yang and the paragons of moral virtue that is Wangxian, he's definitely the one that feels closest to an everyday man, in personality if you ignore all the murders. I am petty, I hold grudges, I can be entitled and selfish, I am overall a massive rude cunt, but I do not want to hurt people and everyday I strive to be better than the last, even in infinitesimal ways. As should anyone. But that is something that Jiang Cheng doesn't even acknowledge, stuck as he is in his victim mentality and inferiority complex.

But Jiang Cheng is morally bankrupt. He is not morally gray. Not even dark gray. As an adult, he is painstakingly human and in general, a bad person.

And that is OK.

To make him a better person, you don't have to change his entire character with half assed head canons, just make him acknowledge his flaws and let him (finally) grow as a person, past that stubborn mentality he has had for decades.

He IS a bad person, but even bad people have a capacity for growth and change, of the moment they allow themselves to. If he ever gets forgiven for his past actions, that's on the people he has hurt, not that it should even be considered in his journey towards growth.

(Frankly, I don't think he would be. I think he shouldn't be, but that's not for me to decide. However, I can definitely JC finally making some tiny progresses but for all the wrong reasons, and get insulted when, if he ever even get to that point, his apologies don't end up fixing everything. He is totally the kind of person that would see you being mad at them and feel like he's the one being victimized because you didn't accept his half assed apologies. The emotional maturity on this man is below -100.)

(Also, Wei Wuxian isn't morally gray in the total opposite, in that he is such a good person, be it morally or emotionally, just. God, I envy his mental fortitude and his capacity for forgiveness and love.)

Sorry again for the ask, just had to rant somewhere about this and I am kind of curious about how you consider the "morally gray" argument. I think it's total bullshit, if the entire post didn't tell you, but yeah, I'm curious.

I hope I was coherent enough, I did not plan this ask at all, it was all streams of consciousness.

So before I get to the actual material of your rant—of which I agree with—I want to go on a tangent. Bad people as a category are not “dehumanized.” Dehumanization is the act of stripping someone or a group of people of their humanity as a tool of oppression, and it must come with material consequences. Saying that a continent of people are only capable of non-human animal intelligence to justify centuries of enslavement is dehumanization. Saying that a country of people are born terrorists to justify flattening their homeland and claiming it by a different name is dehumanization. Claiming that the man who called you out on your desires to be the new oppressors is a literal demon wanting to destroy your heritage in order to justify leading an army to kill him and his charges while attempting to remove their ability to reincarnate is dehumanization. Calling a child abuser a monster is not dehumanization. It is just an insult.

In fact, the “human traits” of terrible human beings do not need to be defended, because more often than not the absolute worst human beings are materially protected from the consequences of their actions by people who want to defend their “humanity.” In mdzs, I don’t give two fucks about Jiang Cheng’s one “human” trait of loving his nephew, because his “inhumane” traits of abusing said nephew and everyone else in his life intentionally overshadow that by his own design. Jiang Yanli loved her son just as much and lost much more than Jiang Cheng ever did, but she didn’t become an unrepentant monster. Humans are not “monsters-in-waiting” whereby we must act as if every individual is always one step away from committing unspeakable acts of depravity. If that was the case, we would not have survived as a community-dependent social species. Therefore, I do not find Jiang Cheng as the most relatable character ever because I do not find the way that he gives into anti-human behaviors to be relatable to me on a personal level or to be representative of most people’s actions throughout the course of their lives. To feel pain is human, and to have outbursts about it is understandable. To abuse about it? To murder about it? To mass murder about it??? Absolutely anti-human, anti-community, and the type of behavior that can only survive and thrive in an environment that privileges people with those specific “inhumane” traits above everyone else. (One might even call it the environment of a corrupt hierarchy of power that mdzs critiques.) The exact opposite of dehumanization. So if I choose to call Jiang Cheng a monster, it is to intentionally point out the ways that his conscious actions as a character in this story are a negation of human life and community.

On that note, I’ve discussed how this fandom uses “morally gray” in this ask (excuse the fact that I switch between “grey” and “gray” lmao). To bring back a point from my rant from above, Jiang Cheng has his one (1) good trait leveraged by fandom to whitewash his crimes under the guise of “morally gray,” while Wei Wuxian is the one actually being dehumanized by that same label as people use it to justify his literal murder (and those of the Wen remnants) in the story, so that’s my feelings on that. Whether Jiang Cheng can be redeemed or not, I frankly do not care to speculate because the story concludes his character arc at him regressing back into Jiang “hunter of Wen” Cheng, still rich, still single, and still only loved by his nephew. At the end of the day, he is not a real person and I’m only here for wangxian.