Im Not Trying To Be Like Spamton Was Never Happy Because I Dont Think Thats Accurate, But I Dont Think

I’m not trying to be like “Spamton was never happy” because I don’t think that’s accurate, but I don’t think that being famous was something he enjoyed as much as he makes it sound like he did.

A lot of celebrities will say that fame makes it harder to form relationships, because there’s always that question of “are they really my friend/lover/etc or do they just want to be near me because I’m famous” that lingers in the back of their minds.

Spamton probably had better relationships back when he was with the addisons, it’s easy for me to imagine him internally doubting his new friends and refusing to get overly close to them when he was a big shot, because he’s always worried about the possibility of them only liking Mr. Number 1 Rated Salesman 1997 and not the real, genuine Spamton G. Spamton that’s hidden behind his big image. 

And at this point, he doesn’t want anyone to see the genuine Spamton, that Spamton was unsuccessful and forgettable and it’s uncomfortable for him to think about who he really is. Or who he really “was,” because he’s trying his best to put his addison days behind him. He can’t fathom the idea that anyone else would want to see the genuine Spamton either, especially when he can be a big shot for them instead, so even if he made new friends that would have been supportive and would have wanted to get closer to him, he just pushes them away and stops them from forming any kind of deeper connections.

Also, it’s probably worse since he needed help to get famous. He wouldn’t be where he is without Mike and the person on the phone, and he’s so happy and grateful for his success, but it just makes his image seem all the more fake. He sees all the posters of his face around the city and thinks, is that really me? Is that really what people want me to be?

Oh god, and when he falls from grace and his business fails. That had to have been his worst fears coming true, because none of his new high-class friends were there to help him. As soon as he was no longer big, they just left him to struggle alone. 

What if he had tried to form a deeper bond with them, what if he hadn’t kept them at arm’s length the whole time and had been their friend instead of a friendly acquaintance? If there was something that he could’ve done to build those relationships, it was too late to do anything now, and he’d already left all of his old friends in the dust when he became big, so he’s burned all of his bridges. 

So Spamton has to face the consequences alone. Nobody hardly even notices him struggling. And after the neo fight, when it seems like he’s actually died, who is there to care about him? If his popular friends even noticed, they don’t comment on it, they don’t cry for him. 

The only one from his days of fame that seems to remember him? Swatch. Swatch has sympathy for him and his fate, but they’re giving him the kind of pity you’d give when you read in the paper that an old has-been celebrity died. It’s kind of them to speak of him in a sympathetic light despite everything, but at the same time it’s a cold, informal type of sympathy, not the kind of sympathy you’d show to a friend.

The only ones who on some level cared about Spamton through everything were the addisons. They pretend not to know him if asked, and if they were aware of what happened to him post-eviction, then they looked the other way, which was cruel of them. But there was probably bad blood on both sides here, and both Spamton and the addisons likely did and said some less than kind things to each other. I don’t think it’s fair to blame either party for the fallout Spamton had with them, it seems like they all had a hand in causing it.

But before everything went wrong, the addisons used to socialize with Spamton over at the cyber grill, they treated him like any other addison even back when he was small and unsuccessful. They were the only ones who even attempted to check on him after he was evicted. They go as far as to close their shops, the foundation for their sole purpose in life, just to take a moment to properly mourn him.

The addisons weren’t there for him as much as they should’ve been, but in the end, none of the people he knew when he was a big shot were willing to be a friend to him after things turned sour. It was only his old friends the addisons who still cared enough about Spamton to try to honor his memory in some way.

Why is Swatch a class traitor???

Thank you very much for asking :)

In this post I'll be using he/they pronouns interchangeably to refer to Swatch. I enjoy the idea of they-pronouns Swatch but at the same time I refuse to believe that the only instance of canon pronoun usage to refer to him is misgendering, as some people posted about before, because that's not how Toby flies.

That being said, before talking about Swatch specifically, I need to explain the logic behind this reading of them. Swatch being seen as a "class traitor" is derived from the marxist idea of class consciousness, or in different terms, the fact that people who are in the same economic position understand each other and therefore owe each other solidarity, the idea that people need to be conscious of their position in their society and side with people who will help their situation and improve their lives.

In this sense, a class traitor is a person who, despite understanding their position in the social strata, refuses to side with their peers and instead either shuns them to appeal to a higher social class, to "appear as one of them", so to speak, or completely refuses the idea that they are part of that class to begin with. A good, palpable example, are snobbish, classist doctors. Doctors are employed by someone – be it a hospital, a clinic, an insurance company, the government in some countries, even in private practice, etc, but they are not, by Marx's definitions, owners of capital, aka someone with the exorbitant amount of money that allows them to control production in a large scale (in other words, conglomerates and billionaires). However, having a higher material condition on average, and having attained this social position through study that was allowed by a higher material condition in the first place, some doctors don't realize that they are just as much of a proletariat as the poor man they are treating, and thus exhibit behavior like discrediting, ignoring or even being hostile to people they identify as lesser, despite the fact that they're supposed to be together, sociologically speaking.

What the fuck does that have to do with Swatch, you ask? Well, Swatch is, to put it bluntly, literally a servant to aristocracy. They are, by definition, part of the working class, and therefore they owe solidarity to their fellow workers. Spamton, in direct counterbalance, is a member of the working class who has been elevated, by one way or another, into a position that makes him just as, if not more powerful than aristocracy. Spamton had become burgoise, though he still retains his origin as a working class salesman, that much hasn't changed in him, as far as we can tell. This seems to be going on just fine, if we are to believe Spamton's response in the Q&A, until Spamton needs a support system, when his business goes belly up to the point that he ends up homeless.

I really need to emphasize this point. Spamton isn't a "funny little guy who lives in a non-house cuz it's funny", not even in-universe. He is, put it simply, destitute. He does not live in the trash because he wants to. And, I think that every clear-headed person understands this, you cannot go from being one of, if not the, richest person in your entire world, to a homeless man living in a garbage can who people pretend doesn't exist, unless your peers and your society have wronged you tremendously. Spamton didn't become a homeless man just because he fucked around and found out, he became a homeless man because he fucked around and found out, AND none of his peers from this time wanted to help him. And, most importantly, this includes Swatch.

As a servant, he must know what poverty looks like. He must know what having a material condition worse than the ones you surround yourself with is like. And they did nothing to help, or maybe even contributed to Spamton's isolation, which is a separate can of worms I don't have the energy to look at gameplay videos for at this time of night.

For real, does the guy who sells Spamton's bowties with the label removed, and refers to him as a "crooked salesman", and plays it coy and laments when Spamton goes off the deep end sound like they have class consciousness?

Do they sound like they wouldn't shoo off a poor, hungry plugboy from the palace's kitchen back door?

Swatch has apparently rejected his origin not only as a metaphorically working-class artist, but the fact that he could empathize with other working-class people as well, including the less fortunate and the desperate. This makes him a class traitor, by Marx's own theory.

Of course, there's a lot more nuance to Swatch and Spamton's relationship, especially the fact that Spamton isn't the perfect portrait of a poor victim and is very combative and aggressive, which doesn't make people very willing to empathize with him in the first place. There's also the power inbalance and dynamic involved in the fact that, when Spamton lived in the Pandora Palace, Swatch was his butler as well, and that might complicate things from Swatch's end.

At the end of the day, this is just my own takeaway from Swatch's words about Spamton, and Spamton's words about Swatch. This doesn't mean much for anything besides my own understanding of Deltarune and what sort of fun dynamics I can explore in fanworks, nor does it mean I am claiming it as truth, but I do think it's an interesting exercise in media analysis.

Edited to include a few more words on Spamton becoming burgoise cuz I meant to do that but forgor lmao

You ever think about how Undertale uses Flowey to break the 4th wall, without actually breaking the 4th wall? The game merely imitates the vocabulary of 4th wall breaks...

...through the words of a grieving boy who just wants his best friend back

That's why the fallen human is essentially our "role" in the story. That's why Flowey is set up as a player parallel. From beginning to end, this was always a story about Asriel and Chara. In Undertale's story, the role of "player" is, metanarratively, the role of a ghost.

That's why the story is so heavily character driven. That's why progress is marked by helping people move on from the past. That's why the game ends (and can only truly end) by asking us to let go.

It's a ghost story. It's all a fucking ghost story.

This is Evil Spamtonology

Hello! I'm mafa @rubsjuice, she/her, and I enjoy media analysis of all kinds, even more so of Deltarune. I've been relentlessly roleplaying Spamton for two years, and I've thought a lot about this little guy, things that after a long time of restricting them to my friends' discord server, I feel the need to share with the wider community.

The owner of @spamtonology is my friend and gave me their blessing to name my blog this way because they're nicey and polite and I'm fucked up and evil.

This blog will focus on Spamton, but it will also branch to other UTDR characters, concepts, and worldbuilding, because a good character is nothing without his world and baby, Spamton is living in it.

I'm not very sure how I plan to organize the blog yet, tag-wise. I'll edit this intro post when I do.

Feel free to send asks! I love talking to other people and sharing opinions. Please don't be shy, but in case you are, I'll make sure anon asks are open <3

DISCLAIMERS:

These are all my own analysis of the written text of UTDR, as well as making cross references with other media and concepts I've come across in life. I in no way am claiming that what I'm saying is the truth, nor that it is the only acceptable interpretation of the UTDR narrative. To do so would be intellectually disonest and honestly I hate that.

My posts are intended for an adult audience. While I won't be posting explicit content, nor am I interested in doing so, I might talk about things that are upsetting or uncomfortable. I cannot and will not forbid teens from reading my blog, and I will do my best to write my posts in a way that's accessible for everyone, but I will not go to lengths to make anything I say kid-friendly. If you're in middle school and onwards, you are well-equipped to follow an intellectual discussion that is not sugarcoated or advertiser friendly, and I will not pretend you aren't.

You are allowed to fuck or not fuck Spamton in any way you'd like, I don't care and that's not the objective of this blog. You don't need to ask me anything of the sort. Play clown games, win clown prizes.

I'm replying on my UTDR metaposting blog, I hope that's fine

As more people pointed out, Chara is not a "prince", even if they were to be in the game in this sense. Toby Fox wouldn't literally misgender a character just to do a red herring in a prophecy he wrote. Second of all, Undertale and Deltarune are completely unrelated. There are themes that were introduced in Undertale that carry over to Deltarune, and there are definitely parallels between the two games, but these worlds are not the same continuity and the creator explicitly told people that they should not be thought of as the same continuity.

It also does seem weird that of all three of the characters you point as "fitting the prophecy to a tee" Kris is the only one who actually resembles the character sillouette shown in the prophecy image. You'd think either all of them match, or none of them match. It's really hard to find inconsistence like the one you're theorizing to be real in Toby's storytelling. This is simply not how these games are constructed.

List of other characters that fit the prophecy to a tee according your own logic:

- Kris, Susie, Ralsei (this i personally believe is a red herring because Ralsei is an unreliable narrator AND he doesn't resemble the sillouette of the prince of the dark as closely as Kris and Susie resemble theirs)

- Kris, Susie and Lancer (he's more of a prince than Chara because he's literally the son of a king in this same continuity)

- Frisk, Sans and Asriel (since we're putting undertale into the mix)

- The player, Monster Kid and Gaster (you have to wonder why Gaster is always associated with the dark, no? He certainly fits the role of a prince)

- Chara, Asriel back from university, The Knight

Seriously, the list goes on. If all you're evaluating is the single sentence ("A HUMAN, a MONSTER, and a PRINCE FROM THE DARK"), it is way too vague to draw any conclusions. It could literally be anyone. Chara is not in Deltarune in the same way they are in Undertale, if they're there at all. I know about the theory that they interrupt Gaster in the goner maker and I do believe it has merit, but I don't think we have enough information to say anything conclusive about Chara, the prince from the dark, or anyone else in this prophecy.

I'm sorry, but the fact that Kris, Gaster, and Chara fit the Deltarune prophecy to a tee just can not be overlooked.

P.S. And when you consider that both Chara and Gaster are shown to have knowledge of other worlds and that ALL THREE OF THESE PEOPLE KNOW OF YOUR EXISTENCE, all of a sudden it doesn't seem so coincidental.

Okay, I've cooked lunch. Let's get to real cooking now.

Basically once every few years I like watching a 100% playthrough of Majora's Mask (usually that ancient commentated one by Zelda Dungeon but this year I opted for a single video 10 hour no-commentary HD mod playthrough), and this year as I was practicing this tradition I started reflecting upon what I like about MM. It's not just that its themes are more reflective of death, it's not just that everything in it is written in a way to always culminate in the end of the 72 hours. What I like the most about it is how compact it is compared to OoT. The lack of Hyrule Fields means that everything in Termina is closer together. It feels like a more closed, more comfortable experience than the vast expanse of Hyrule.

Another thing I really like, and that's more coincidental than anything, is that the models and characters are all more or less the same as in Ocarina of Time, but they all have completely different roles and relationships to one another, although not exactly that much different from OoT. This is what made my synapses fire up at 1 A.M. to post the sentence "I think Undertale is Majoras Mask for Deltarune's Ocarina of Time" nine hours later after i wokeup

Here's my reasoning: I mostly understand Majora's Mask as an allegory for Link's existential crisis and his way of coping with loss and change from the end of OoT when he chooses to continue being a child. Termina is all centered around the idea of imminent impact, imminent change, something you can't control and yet will still come, the end of a world as you know it and beginning of something you don't know. That's a very vivid picture of what Link might be feeling during OoT, realizing he's not a fairy boy and becoming a knight for a princess and being part of a prophecy that perpetuates for generations and having to defeat the literal incarnation of evil who is a huge buff man and having to grow up and travel through time and link's like 12. That's a lot of change in an incredibly small amount of time. Of course Link'll be thinking about it for a while.

So, taking the interpretation that Majora's Mask is allegorical, I circle this back to Undertale and Deltarune: I think Undertale too is some sort of allegory for Deltarune. Deltarune is obviously the more expansive game of the two, has been worked on the longest and was intended to come first. All of the characters that appear in Undertale are present in Deltarune in more... Let's say grounded roles, and sometimes less idealistic than in Undertale. To illustrate my point:

"divorced mom and dad" -> "mom who lives in isolation and dad who lives far away and also they're the royals"

"suddenly there new grocery shop owner and his little brother who i wanna befriend so bad" -> "two cool skeleton brothers who showed up out of nowhere that everyone likes and who are your best friends"

"old man who died long ago who was beloved by all that you've never met" -> "old man who is still alive who tells you cool stories and is super smart and fun to hang with"

et cetera

Add onto this the concept that Undertale is a comfortable and safe game, which is something I really like. When I first played it, Undertale made me nostalgic for something I've never experienced; nostalgia without a subject. Finally, after 8 slutty, slutty years, I figured out why. It makes me nostalgic for a time in your infancy where you understand the world as friendly, because you're still too small to have experienced much more than your own home. Everyone is looking out for you and nobody wants to harm you. Undertale feels so comfortable to me because I know no characters in that game are dangerous due to bad intentions (which is another part of my disdain for evil gaster headcanons but i'm getting ahead of myself there), and I know that most of the characters, when they are threatening, are just putting on a show to interact with you (I promise you, if you play Undertale with the mindset that all of the monsters are either humoring or babysitting Frisk it turns into such an amusing little game). And in that regard, it's very contrastant how different Deltarune is. Deltarune is more mature in that sense – in the idea that there are ill intentioned people in the world, people who are not giving themselves the responsibility to be nice to kids and teens, a world that is more complex than a teenager would wish it to be.

So, in summation, Undertale appears to be an allegorical, idealized, safe world based on the world of Deltarune. Whether this means that Frisk is a representation of Kris from their own perspective, or something else, I don't think we have the information to figure out yet. But what would this mean for their unrelated-ness?

I do believe that when Toby let everyone know that Undertale and Deltarune were Unrelated, I don't think he meant it "completely". I think he meant it in a way to stop people from viewing them in a linear way, as in, one is a sequel to the other, in which the same logic and lore would apply. I think Undertale and Deltarune are related in either of two ways:

Undertale is fictional inside of Deltarune (thus, it actually has 3 levels of fictionality which is something I wanna talk about some other day)

Undertale is a rearranging of the Deltarune universe (if you're a homestuck girlie, effectively a post-scratch universe), in which some relationships and worldly rules are maintained and some are reworked towards a specific goal.

I think that, by the time Chapter 7 is published, we will have the answer to this, but for now, there's not enough canon info out there to draw any conclusion, including the one this same theory brings up: What is Undertale an allegory for?

(personally, I think it'd fit within the themes of escapism and idealization turned into unhealtiness, as well as the wish every older teen/young adult has to return to childhood, but that's again a topic for another post)

But yeah. This is why Deltarune is Ocarina of Time and Undertale is Majora's Mask. Enjoy the meal.

Do you see my vision?