Is There Any In-game Evidence That Supports Akechi Getting Either Loki Or Robin Hood First?

is there any in-game evidence that supports Akechi getting either Loki or Robin Hood first?

Hello! I've discussed this before here.

Tl;dr: though there's Word of God saying Akechi awoke to both personas at the same time, there probably still has to be an order—I hear something similar happens with the P3 protagonist, with one persona emerging from the other? Or like Protect and Endure, where Akechi learns both at the same time (at rank 10), but there is still an order to them.

During the third awakenings, the original base persona appears on the left, with the second awakening persona on the right. And in Akechi's, Robin Hood is on the left:

On top of that, the third awakenings are a glow-up of the original persona. Hereward is kind of a reverse glow-up (a dim-down??) of Robin Hood:

So I think Royal makes it pretty clear that Robin Hood is the base persona, and Loki the second awakening—regardless of the actual timing of those awakenings, of whether they happened on top of each other or years apart. Just like how, on the black mask suit, you can see the blue layer is the base layer, with the black stripes sewn over the top.

Akechi was not born evil—his circumstances made him so. His personas, and his outfit, reflect that.

revision history

Click here for the latest version.

v1.0 (2024/01/18)—first posted.

martyr's reprise [Ed Simon, Who’s There?: Every Story Is a Ghost Story / Emil Cioran, Tears and Saints / Dylan Trigg, The Memory of Place: A Phenomenology of the Uncanny]

About Yuri:

Funny thing is that most of us fans are expecting this arc to be the 'Yuri's redemption' arc…. And so…. was something like this…. or so. —I end up as a cry baby after being shot for saving the chihuahua girl- Honestly It's hard to expect that this arc was going to represent such an abrupt change. In SxF the characters suffer from a slow and steady process, at least the Forger's are like that…. So, Yuri will take a while to show the best (or worst) of himself.

One interesting thing about Yuri's character, —at least to me- is that you don't necessarily have to like him, in fact, it can be enjoyable to watch him squirm in frustration and pain when he fails (sabotaging Twiyor) because most of the time he's a huge jerk.

I think Yuri's purpose is to explore how negative country influences can brainwash vulnerable young people even if their intentions are genuinely noble. In the end they fill their brains with a bunch of propagandist garbage in exchange for them working for the government and helping them stay in power. That is, a person's genuine feelings about protecting a family can be severely influenced by the social and political context.

Seen that way, Yuri IS a victim of the war, and he is a rather weak prey, who instead of being seen as someone directly hurt by the government, works for them and is congratulated for his labor…. So, Yuri is not portrayed as a tragic being, with whom you feel sorry despite his bad actions (Like Billy with Red Circus), but on the contrary, you want to give him a good kicking.

However, despite all the negative things Endo exposes about Yuri (which is too much) he shows that he still has a good side to rescue: the love he feels for Yor (as twisted as it is) is a genuine love and superior to any order of the SSS. Because Yuri doesn't care about his government he cares about his sister, his only family.

The biggest problem… perhaps… is that the way Yuri sees his relationships outside of Yor, is very much influenced by the Ostanian mentality of gaining power, to supposedly protect his country (his sister)… when all he is really protecting is the stay of one group of people in control of a country

Endo always punishes Yuri for his bad actions, always looking for us to see him with a weirdo that causes heartburn because he....is very broken. But he also takes care to show us that underneath that mountain of awkward weirdness there is a good person…. even if he doesn't show it very often and so far it's only towards Yor

Yuri's head is full of garbage… governmental garbage and very wrong ideas about protecting

If we recall, a major basis for Yuri is his childhood, as he claims to "hate himself for feeling useless", for being a burden to Yor —Because, Yor doesn't work for her, he works for him— That's why he became obsessed with being an outstanding student and holding a position to repay all the work she did for him.

So Yuri's goal was to become someone important who has a lot of power to obtain the supposed power to protect his sister, (or so he wants to believe). But in Ostania the only way to be powerful is through economic and political means. Yuri and Yor were poor and orphans, therefore, being a military policeman gives him enough political and social power (from the shadows).

The lie is that the power of the SSS is not to protect its sister, not to protect its inhabitants, not even to protect a group of children imprisoned by terrorists. The SSS only protects the political leaders and their stay in power at the expense of the innocent.

Ostania's policy is repressive, violent and cruel -Violence is power, violence controls, intimidates and eliminates whoever crosses your path.. Creating the idea of the evil world outside and inside its borders, everyone is trash and that if something bad happens to them it is because they surely deserve it. The government is supposed to be the good guy, because it protects, but it only protects itself.

His intentions are genuine but his methods are going in entirely the wrong direction. Yuri wants to do what is 'necessary' to create a safer world for his sister but the power he has and is wielding does not create a more peaceful world, but a more violent, hostile and resentful one.

But he has not yet understood the difference

.

The most interesting thing in Yuri's possible evolution is to find the difference between what he actually protects and the way he does it. He can't make the world safer for his sister if he can't even make the world safer for a child...And the SSS way is definitely not!!

So Yuri is a huge idiot Yes! …. but he still has the capacity to change for the better (or worse). Knowing that he felt a shred of empathy for the slanderer because he showed he cared about his family, and especially... He genuinely went to help save Anya (for Yor), his will for his niece is very weak, but at least I think it's a little seed change for the non-favorite uncle

Just saw your recent reblog, I'm so sorry if you get asked this a lot--is the cut post-game location where Akechi is not a rehab?

Wow, I've just been through my index and it doesn't seem I've ever posted about this—so thank you for asking! Note that this is (hopefully) PART ONE of a two-part post; this is way overlong without me getting into my thoughts about this scene.

The scene we're talking about is a deleted scene where Akechi (offscreen, and clearly alive) is talking to two employees (onscreen), in what looks like a bathhouse. They gossip about his plans for the future, until he arrives in person to catch them out and put some things on record.

Here's the scene, with my translation. (page down for the text). Pay attention to how the, uh, man standing in the bath knows Akechi is outside all along, while the woman who comes in to gossip does not.

There are a lot of theories about this scene—where is it happening? when does it happen? what purpose does it serve?—not least because there are several different translations floating around. But we can tell quite a bit from the text. Quick summary, since this is a post and a half already:

The place Akechi checks in on 12/24, per this deleted scene, is not a rehab or hotel or hospital, but a type of refuge called a kakekomidera.

This scene takes place (probably) after school on 2/10, as the last of the string of confidant interventions between 2/4 and 2/13. As such, it represents the thing Akechi is doing for Joker to get him out of detention.

Let's take a look.

firstly, what is this place?

People have variously described the bathhouse in this scene as a rehab (no), a hotel or ryokan (no), a hospital (no) and a mental hospital (def Not). So what is it?

The scene tells us exactly what it is:

Gossipy Employee ⋯まあここは、俺らもそうだけど、スネに傷あるモンの駆け込み寺だ。 ... maa koko wa, orera mo sou da kedo, sune ni kizu aru mon no kakekomidera da [lit. well, this place is a kakekomidera for people with a guilty conscience, like us.]

what is a kakekomidera?

A 寺 tera is a Buddhist temple; it's the ji at the end of a lot of temple names. 駆け込む kakekomu means to seek refuge somewhere. So a kakekomidera is a temple where you seek refuge.

And that is the place Akechi has taken himself to: it's a refuge. It's a shelter, like a domestic violence shelter—somewhere you go when you're at the end of your rope, with nowhere to turn; when you're in danger. Somewhere he stayed as a child—with his mother, who was likewise in a perilous and vulnerable situation. Where he knows there are people who will take him in, no questions asked, after everything he's done. Who might even remember him.

Historically, a kakekomidera (like the one in the link) was a place women could go if their husbands were abusive; they entered religious service, and subsequently accessed divorce: "Temple records show that, during the Tokugawa period alone"—that's 1603–1857, often also called the Edo period—"an estimated 2,000 women sought shelter there."

Services called kakekomidera still exist today. They are often in temples—if you can stop by to talk to a monk about your problems and look for solutions, that's a kakekomidera. Online helpdesks are often called kakekomidera—you can look up a "Desktop Publishing kakekomidera" site, for instance.

[more below the cut...]

English sources are usually all referencing the same organisation, Gen Hidemori's Nippon Kakekomidera in Shinjuku:

Gen opens the doors of his organization to all who are in dire straits, regardless of age, gender, income, or social status. Visitors to the office located in Tokyo’s infamous Kabukichō red-light district seek respite from domestic violence, pressing debt, and trouble with organized crime groups. Gen says he even sees gang members looking to make a clean break from the criminal underworld.

Does a kakekomidera do rehab-like things sometimes? Sure. They act as halfway houses for people leaving prison. They help people work through problems in their lives. But in English, a "rehab" is focused on rehabilitating people—after addiction, after illness or injury, after prison, during old age—and that is not what I think we should be picturing here.

I have not been able to track down a residential one like the one in the game, but hey, it's fiction. I wouldn't want to say, though, that they don't exist—don't forget the historical kakekomidera, where you entered service and stayed until you were ready to leave. Though this doesn't appear to be any sort of religious setting, I suspect it's not for nothing that Akechi is doing menial work around the place.

next, when does this scene take place?

The game code allows us to lock this scene almost down to the hour. This will get a little technical at points, so bear with me. You can easily skim past most of this.

Every event in P5 and P5R is numbered. They have two numbers: a major number, identifying the event, and a minor number, identifying part of the event. (You can get more granular than this, identifying individual lines of the script, but that's beyond our scope here.)

This deleted event of Akechi's is numbered E470_810. That is, it has a major number (identifying the event) of 470, and a minor number (identifying part of event 470) of 810.

what is event 470?

Event 470 is the collection of events that happen after Joker enters detention—that is, on 12/24 with Sae in vanilla, or on 2/4 after Maruki's boss fight in Royal.

You can probably see where this is going. Here's the list of events in event 470:

E470_001—[vanilla only] the sad Christmas Day meeting after Joker is arrested, where the PTs determine that this is super unfair and they should do something about it;

E470_101—[vanilla only] Joker's interrogation while detained;

E470_201—Sojiro's intervention after Joker's arrest;

E470_211—Takemi's intervention after Joker's arrest;

E470_301—Kawakami's intervention after Joker's arrest;

E470_311—Iwai's intervention after Joker's arrest;

E470_401—Mishima's intervention after Joker's arrest;

E470_411—Chihaya's intervention after Joker's arrest;

E470_501—Ohya's intervention after Joker's arrest;

E470_511—Yoshida's intervention after Joker's arrest;

E470_601—Shinya's intervention after Joker's arrest;

E470_611—Hifumi's intervention after Joker's arrest;

E470_701—Makoto's intervention after Joker's arrest;

E470_711—Sumire's intervention after Joker's arrest;

E470_810—Akechi's intervention after Joker's arrest.

The next event after that is E471_001, which is Sae meeting Joker in detention for his release on 2/13.

What does this list tell us? Well, mainly, this deleted scene of Akechi's, E470_810, was intended to play along with all those others up there; they're the same event, with the same major number, 470. It's not some random scene we can know nothing about; it has a context, and that context is that Akechi, just like the others, is working to get Joker out of detention. If this scene had been left in, it would have played along with all the other max-rank confidant scenes prior to 2/13.

You might have noticed that Akechi's scene is not quite grouped with the others—there is no E470_801, when the other confidant scenes move cleanly through Ex_x01 to Ex_x11 to Ex_x01 and so on. Whether that's because there's a missing event (storyboarded but never written?) or because he's not quite working with the others, or perhaps because it would have played out of sequence, like Makoto's (numbered last, originally, even though it played first)—we can't tell.

I did say we could lock this scene down almost to the hour, and that brings us to something called the scheduler:

where is event 470 in the scheduler? what is the scheduler?

The scheduler is a piece of code that tells the game engine what events to play on what day. If you want to know what triggers an event to play, the scheduler is a good first stop.

It's split into one file per month (SCHEDULER_04.BF through SCHEDULER_03.BF), and each month is split into a number of functions per day. Usually two functions play in the morning (early and mid-morning?) and five in the PM slot, which we can identify from the events that happen during them:

PM slot A—lunchtime. Includes e.g. the deleted lunch events;

PM slot B—midafternoon. Includes e.g. the chat events during the afternoon lesson;

PM slot C—after school. Includes e.g. Mishima's after-school confidant unlock in your homeroom;

PM slot D—evening. Includes e.g. Sae and Makoto's conversation over dinner before the hot pot party;

PM slot E—bed. Includes e.g. Joker's excursions to the Velvet Room.

In vanilla, the clock is visible for these confidant events, so we can see time passing; the events are also spread more widely through the day. In Royal, though, the clock is disabled for them, probably because they're so much closer together. But whether you consider these event times binding or not, we can still see exactly when they are—because the scheduler tells us so:

Makoto (E470_701)—2/5 (Royal), 1/3 (vanilla), midafternoon;

Sojiro (E470_201)—2/5 (Royal), 1/5 (vanilla), midafternoon;

Takemi (E470_211)—2/6 after school (Royal), 1/7 midafternoon (vanilla);

Kawakami (E470_301)—2/6 (Royal), 1/10 (vanilla), after school;

Iwai (E470_315)—2/7 after school (Royal only); Iwai (E470_311)—1/13 after school (vanilla only);

Mishima (E470_401)—2/7 (Royal), 1/14 (vanilla), after school;

Chihaya (E470_411)—2/8 (Royal), 1/16 (vanilla), after school;

Ohya (E470_501)—2/8 after school (Royal), 1/18 evening (vanilla);

Yoshida (E470_511)—2/9 after school (Royal), 1/22 midafternoon (vanilla);

Shinya (E470_601)—2/9 (Royal), 1/28 (vanilla), midafternoon;

Hifumi (E470_611)—2/9 (Royal), 1/31 (vanilla), after school;

Sumire (E470_711)—2/10 after school (Royal only).

Lastly, Sae always breaks Joker out during the midafternoon slot on 2/13, in both Royal and vanilla, just before Valentine's Day.

Is there anything notable in this huge swathe of data?

Three confidants changed their event slot in Royal, presumably to fit multiple events into one function on the same day: Takemi moved from midafternoon in vanilla to after school in Royal, Ohya moved from the evening slot to after school, and Yoshida moved from midafternoon to after school.

Iwai has two minor numbers, because he has two slightly different events—vanilla Iwai says "Make sure the guys in lock-up know not to let anyone lay a damn finger on him", while Royal Iwai does not!

Why was this line cut from Royal? Was Joker somehow in less danger in juvie? Well... vanilla places a lot more emphasis on Joker's detention. Rather than Akechi showing up on 12/24, Sae has a long digression about juvenile hall, and how awful it will be, and the consequences for Joker and his friends. Joker gets interrogated in detention and so on.

So maybe this line was there to build suspense, in vanilla—whereas in Royal, there's just no need, because everything has already happened.

what about akechi

OKAY SO. Getting back to the important stuff, what does all of that tell us about Akechi's deleted scene? Well, it lets us date it.

This scene does not appear to exist in vanilla, when Akechi is pretty definitively ?dead in January and February. It was added with Sumire's, for Royal—and then deleted from the scheduler, so that it's out of game. And in Royal, two events play every day—except on 2/10.

Only Sumire's event plays on 2/10. So we can stake a pretty good guess here that Akechi's event would have been paired with Sumire's event, the other Royal Trio event, in that after school time slot on 2/10.

Maybe it would have played on 2/11 or 2/12. Maybe it would have been like Makoto's event, and jumped out of the list to play elsewhen. But given that it's a reveal, I think it almost certainly would have played last (as its position in the event list suggests)—and 2/10 with Sumire seems like a good place for it.

lastly, what even is this scene

I'm attaching my translation of the scene beneath the cut, since it's been sitting in my Tumblr drafts forever and a day. Obviously this is hugely subject to error and not likely to be entirely correct—nonetheless, enjoy.

* * *

[The Prurient Employee walks in and addresses the Gossipy Employee, who is staring down at the floor.]

Prurient Employee 聞いた? kiita? Did you hear the news?

Gossipy Employee ああ⋯ aa... I did.

[He turns to her, glancing outside at what appears to be nothing in particular.]

Gossipy Employee さっき、本人から聞いたよ。 sakki, honnin kara kiita yo I just got it from him face to face.

Gossipy Employee 来たばっかだってのに、来月で辞めるって話だろう? kita bakka datte no ni, raigetsu de yameru tte hanashi darou? People were saying he's leaving next month, right? Even though he only just got here.

Prurient Employee あの子まだ、ちっちゃかったときよね?お母さんと一緒に出てって何年ぶり⋯? ano ko mada, chicchakatta toki yo ne? okaasan to issho ni dete tte nannen buri...? That kid was tiny when he left with his mother, wasn’t he? How many years has it been?…

Prurient Employee イケメンになって帰ってきた~って、うちら盛り上がってたのに。 ikemen ni natte kaette kita~tte, uchira moriagatteta no ni We were so excited, he'd just come back all grown-up and handsome, and now...

Gossipy Employee ここのこと覚えといてくれてたのは嬉しかったよな。 koko no koto oboetoite kureteta no wa ureshikatta yo na At least he still remembered he could come here, though.

Gossipy Employee ⋯まあここは、俺らもそうだけど、スネに傷あるモンの駆け込み寺だ。 ... maa koko wa, orera mo sou da kedo, sune ni kizu aru mon no kakekomidera da That's what this place is for. To shelter people like us, who have a past they can't forget.

Gossipy Employee それに昔よしみってんなら、困ってたら匿うのは当然だよ。 sore ni mukashi yoshimi tte n nara, komattetara kakumau no wa touzen da yo Especially someone we’ve known for so long. As if we wouldn’t hide him when he needed it.

Prurient Employee 『東京でやり残したことがある』って理由らしいわよ。 "toukyou de yarinokoshita koto ga aru" tte riyuu rashii wa yo I heard he said he has "unfinished business in Tokyo."

Gossipy Employee そんなことまで知ってるの。 sonna koto made shitteru no You really do know it all, don't you.

Prurient Employee ⋯ねえ。 ...nee Tell me, though...

Prurient Employee やり残したことって、やっぱりコレ関係? yarinokoshita koto tte, yappari kore kankei? This "unfinished business" of his—that’s what all this is about, right?

[Akechi speaks, offscreen.]

Young Man's Voice やめてくださいよ。妙な詮索。 yamete kudasai yo. myouna sensaku I wish you’d keep your nose out of my affairs.

[The Prurient Employee goes !, realising he was there all along.]

Prurient Employee いるなら言ってよ⋯~ iru nara itte yo...~ Tell me, then, if you're right there!

Gossipy Employee 東京で世話になったヤツがいるんだと。 toukyou de sewa ni natta yatsu ga iru n da to He did say there was someone who helped him out in Tokyo.

Gossipy Employee そいつに貸しを作りに行くんだ。 soitsu ni kashi o tsukuri ni iku n da So he's going back because he owes him.

Gossipy Employee なあ? naa? Right?

Young Man's Voice 借り返して辞めるつもりですから。 karikaeshite yameru tsumori desu kara Don't worry, I’ll clear my debts here before I leave.

Young Man's Voice 去年の⋯イヴ? アポ無しで来た僕を何も言わず受けれてくれた分と⋯ kyonen no... ibu? aponashi de kita boku o nani mo iwazu ukerete kureta bun to... For taking me in last year… on Christmas Eve, was it? Without an appointment. Without asking questions.

Young Man's Voice それと昔、母がお世話になった分はね。 sore to mukashi, haha ga o-sewa ni natta bun wa ne And for everything you did for my mother.

Prurient Employee それにしても貸しを作りに⋯なんて、あんたらしいね。 sore ni shite mo kashi o tsukuri ni... nante, anta rashii ne Never mind that. To go to these lengths just because you owe somebody… No, I guess that’s you all over, isn’t it.

Young Man's Voice 思ったとおりにいけば、あいつとあいつと仲間⋯ omotta toori ni ikeba, aitsu to aitsu to nakama... If it comes off, then that guy and his friends will live out their lives…

Young Man's Voice 一生、僕に⋯感謝するんです。 issei, boku ni... kansha suru n desu …Well, they’ll owe me their thanks forever.

[The two employees go ?]

Young Man's Voice 軒先、掃除してきますね。 nokisaki, souji shite kimasu ne I’m going to sweep up outside.

* * *

revision history

Click here for the latest version.

v1.0 (2023/12/03)—first posted.

Much shorter post tonight because I have like 5 other essays about Akechi in the making. I often wonder what the connotations of him, as the black mask, having a helmet are, rather than just a normal mask - especially since it doesn't disappear or is removed even while summoning his persona. Personally, I always viewed it like this: his anger and hatred is there to protect him when everything else failed to. A helmet is meant for protection, and I think thats what I think this persona is for. Any vulnerability can be hidden and buried and crushed under all of that hate. Anger is easier and more efficient than sadness and self-pity. It's so much easier to lay the blame at the feet of the world then to ever admit you may be the problem, or, in Akechi's case, lay all of your problems at the feet of one man and convince yourself that dealing with him will remove all your issues. I also like the idea of him not being able to remove it - his anger is such an embedded part of him that there is no taking it from him. There is no Akechi without that hatred and spite. (Dr. Maruki take notes.)