I Just Wanna Keep This Forever.

I just wanna keep this forever.

So… um, here. Have a Warehouse 13 vid set to well, the Riff Off from Pitch Perfect

(it mostly makes sense? i think)

Hey, your post got me thinking so I hope you don't mind if I brainstorm 'aloud'.  If we accept the idea that a sociopath lacks a sense of moral responsibility or social conscience then I agree with your characterization of Snow and Rumple as more sociopathic than Regina.  My agreement is primarily based out of motivating factors.  Snow's and Rumple's motivations both stem from personal desires irregardless of others.  For example in Snow's case "I want Regina to be better like she was before/I don't want Regina to be estranged from her mother like me" versus "Regina deserves to be better for herself/Daughters deserve a relationship with their mothers."  For example in Rumple's case "I want to get Bae back and am going to use Regina to do so" versus "I was responsible for my actions and should do all that I can to get him back".  Complicating this are that Snow wants to appear 'good', displayed by her often ignoring or dismissing other alternatives that are congruent with her desires, and Rumple wishing to appear both blameless and powerful, as displayed by pretty much everything he does.  Regina's motivations, on the other, outwardly appear selfish and, in my opinion, stem from personal safety.  

I think a big key here is how much she wants to be loved yet at the same time has literally no clue how it is to be loved.  Her mother 'loved' her which involved using magic to physically restrain and harm her, emotionally abusing her using words (judging by the stable boy scene), expecting behaviours regardless of Regina's desires, selling her to another person (based on the whole selling her part I'm going to assume that if Leopold was not an abuser he was at least the holder of her agency which, really, I think is abuse anyway), and doing all of this because she loved her.  Imagine what she would have done if she didn't.  Her father's 'love' involved watching her abuse and making excuses for her abuser, watching as she was unwilling sold to a man his age, waiting years before he assisted her in her plan of escape and trying to talk her out of it (he got the snakes for Genie), and not once that I ever saw telling her it wasn't her fault, that the people who used her were wrong, and that she deserved more.  Pretty much everybody in her life continued these two patterns.  Daniel may have loved her. I found his reactions awfully similar to Henry seniors in that he wanted her but wasn't prepared to stand up to her abuser to keep her safe.  Leopold, y'know the guy who married her, restrained her movement, locked her away emotionally, and blamed her for things she had no control over.  Rumplestiltskin stepped neatly into Cora's shoes using magic to gain control over her and making her always aware that she was never enough.  Snow, egocentric little Snow, 'loved' Regina in the midst of all this but (and I found this telling) never really displayed concern for her emotional health.  Genie professed to love her and helped to save her but only when he thought he would get to keep her.

Even as Queen with Leopold dead and Snow on the run Regina was nearly obsessed with wanting the people to love her.  She had been trained her entire life that a) she needed to be loved to be happy, b) no one could really love her, c) it was all her fault, and d) she's responsible for the fact that people can't love her.  Meanwhile, in the background, we have Rumple ensuring she always lost and Snow getting all the love and happiness she never had despite her actions (i.e. without the responsibility  Regina lives with).  

So when you talked about organic personality versus adopted personality I think about the reaction when one of them kills.  Snow kills some person and rides off into the sunset with her lover happy in the knowledge that she has done something 'good' and/or was forced by some 'evil' outside force to do something 'bad' despite her verbal wishes to the contrary allowing her to shrug off blame and bask in being a hero.  Rumple kills some person that did something vaguely offensive to him but cannot be blamed or held responsible for this due to either a) making the actual act have occurred with someone else's hands or b) being too powerful for the surviving/witnessing people to do a damn thing about it.  Regina kills a whole lot of people and is confused when she is fear/reviled/hated and forever held to account for her act.

Also, while I'm thinking off it.  Snow ships her daughter to Maine in a box despite knowing nothing about Maine except that it is somewhere horrible  without happy endings so that twenty eight years later said daughter can come back and free her and her love from a curse.  Rumple lets his son fall all alone into the last portal to a place without magic knowing that Baelfire cannot fight to protect himself because he doesn't want to lose the magic that gives him power over others.  Regina, after knowing the boy she would like as a son (Owen), for all of two days a) let's him go as he wants and b) stays at the border she can't cross for who knows how long on the off chance he might return and in the process is able to see that he is safe.

I think what it comes down to for me is that Snow and Rumple both like being the way they are regardless of how it impacts society (thus displaying a lack of social conscience).  Regina does not like being the way she is just lacks the understanding of how to be any different without becoming unsafe.

eshusplayground — I’m curious about your statement about how Rumple and Snow fit the criteria for psychopathy or sociopathy more than Regina does. Care to elaborate?

Ahhhhh, caught me on a throwaway. This is something I’m still researching, so it’s not quite ready yet,...

Where has this been all my life!?

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white het dudes: it's just a joke. you guys have no sense of humor

oppressed person: *tells a joke about privileged people*

white het dudes: I AM SUDDENLY INCAPABLE OF UNDERSTANDING IRONY OR SATIRE AND YOU ARE THE NEXT HITLER

My two cents (cause this entire conversation got me thinking which I love and thought I'd share that love by contributing as is ideal and required in democratic societies).

Firstly, I agree that screwballninja has a point.  Mainly that must base all of our knowledge about something in the physical way it has been shown to us.  In other words, the primary content of this discussion should be direct observation of the show.  

Secondly, I agree that the-silence-in-between and magicalzonbi have a point.  That what is not expressly stated can be more powerful than what is spoken of.  I find that I much prefer a story to show me that a character is a certain way then state a character is a certain way.  Possibly why I am not a fan of Stephenie Meyer's books where Edward is the hottest most amazing guy and not at all a stalker just, ugh, like, cause. 

Thirdly (this one is just me agreeing with me) I believe that we the viewers must draw on our own experiences to create understanding of the broader, unspoken implications.  Which is to say that I quite like Orange is the New Black because I don't have flashbacks to being raped in an American prison like my sibling does.  Pro tip?  Don't ask people who've lived through horrible experiences to watch a show that sometimes trivializes or ignores the implications of these experiences.

So, while I enjoyed the conversation above I must respectfully decline the idea that King Leopold should not be considered a rapist because it was not explicitly shown.  Considering Adam and Eddy's handling of the "take him to my bedchamber scene", our historical understanding of a similar power structure, and my personal experience with misogyny (which suggests that the 'villain' of the show would never be permitted something as empathy producing as an explicit showing of the abuse done to her on a family television show by a old straight white man unless she was shown to 'deserve' it [cause boy wouldn't it be awkward for the producers, writers, owners, and creators if they did]) I am going to continue strongly believing that Leopold had sex with Regina at least once without her consent.  Actually, just because I see no logical reason why he would have sex with her on his (not really her) wedding night with no concern to wether she wanted to have sex then (or ever really) I am going to believe that he likely raped her more than once.  Don't get me wrong, I would be surprised if Regina ever did more than anything other than suggest that she perhaps didn't want to have sex now.  I would also be surprised if Leopold ever physically forced her to have sex.  Consent is never a blurred line.  If Leopold was ever unsure that Regina wanted to have sex, truly wanted the act itself not what came with the act, then it was rape.  Just like if Belle had ever had sex or done a sexual act with Rumple for money, safety, protection, etc. then it would be rape.  Or if Charming ever ignored Snow's protests of "not tonight" and insisted they have sex anyway it would be rape.

In conclusion, when Emma and Henry walk into the apartment to find a mostly topless Snow and Charming lounging around bed, I'm going to chose to believe that they were engaged in some form of sexual act even though the show does not expressly say so.

King Leopold: Creepy Yes, Abusive No (Essay in 4 Parts)

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