Roguelemon - Rogue

That is the thing. See overlords started going missing shortly after Alastor entered Hell, but he didn’t take the credit for a while, is what was said. That’s where that planning time would fit in, thinking on the minds he knew and whether making such an open claim could work. Most wouldn’t have the audacity to make such a claim, true, but I don’t think that could be put past Alastor.

Okay I get what you mean with that. Doesn't really explain the broadcasts but they could always be attributed to other randoms he found on the street? The whole point of radio is that you don't see anything after all and Al is pretty strong on the whole "will not be seen on camera" thing.

Now I've had more time to think on it both scenarios (despite being complete opposites) both do have snippets of evidence (mostly in subtext, mind) to support him being on either extreme of power scale. I'm not convinced the showrunners will go in the alastor is a fraud direction but I personally am starting to see it a little more.

I wasn't trying to be critical btw I've just entered analysis mode because what you said brought up some stuff i hadnt really considered, including Vox maybe dying, which opens a whole other thing. =)

Now I've got 2 separate scenarios to think about. To quote the ancient texts, "holy shit two cakes".

You are 100% right that Alastor is capable of having the audacity to pull something like that though. Even if he isn't a full fraud he definitely strikes me as somebody to make risky lies to get his own way. (I'm convinced he cheated in his game with Husk).

Saw your comment on my Vox analysis and Yep! I'd love to say my bit on this!

In short, I agree mosly with what you've put here. Even of some of the details dont fit with how I perceived the character before it does all make perfect sense.

One key point I'd like to mention is you bringing up Vox being super insecure. Not only do I think this would be a major point in what drives him away from Alastor (trying to change too much/ affecting Alastor) but I think it would have gotten significantly worse after the 'breakup'. Losing that respected connection must have been hard on him and sort of contributes to why I think Val and Vel get away with their shit.

Your statements fit in well into another post I have scheduled about how there's a sweet spot of time between "experienced enough to survive the exterminations" and "dumb luck and not having been in hell for long (so there's no bad reputation to get you used as Angel bait)". The old timers don't respect the younger ones because they probably haven't had to struggle as much, fight their way to the top. The Vees thing is literally mind control/ coercion so it makes sense that the older overlords are pissy that they had to make proper deals for their souls but because of how tech addicted the new gen is the Vees had an easy in.

(It really is those damn phones, lol)

This applies tenfold for Alastor and Vox, since Alastor would have to work hard to build a reputation, not only in death but in life too. Having Vox come in and attempt to wow the masses with lots of flashing lights and pretty pictures probably pissed him off, with the tipping point being, as you say, when Vox tried to influence or 'upgrade' Alastor.

The bit about picking sides is very interesting too. Vox would surely be known for falsifying things or embellishing the truth since that's what gets viewers. Alastor must've built up a reputation of being at least somewhat more trustworthy as an information source, so even if Vox only pissed Al off a little Al could 100% get away with telling whatever side of the story he wanted, shown by how quickly he captivates Vox's viewers after being away for 7 YEARS. That was a long winded way of saying that Vox has a messed up reputation because of how much more they trust Alastor rather then just his own actions.

Them being a well known alliance is kind of a given for me, it seems obvious that what they had must've been A, meaningful and somewhat long term. And B, public or semi-public.

Alastor being the one to approach Vox seems like it's not only the most reasonable, but also most heart wrenching. It's entirely possible that Al wanted Vox's soul or a 'sidekick' type thing to, as you said, do his paperwork and boost his ego then after having a partnership decided he'd rather have a 'friend', then Vox pissed him off so much he can't even be bothered to off him. There has to be something stopping Alastor from just killing Vox and I dont think it's power levels or reputation. Alastor could not give less of a fuck about killing overlords for the fun of it, so having Al be the original instigator of their partnership adds layers.

The final(ish) thing I'd like to add here is that its confirmed that the 'final straw' was Vox asking Al to join his team. If they already had an alliance why was this a problem?

Vox wanted to branch out and have others (Val and Vel) involved. He was so focused on upgrading and bettering he didn't realise how negative they could be for his and Alastors reputation, so when he asked Al to join them after entering another partnership behind his back, Al completely dropped him. (Vox, punished for his hubris)

Of course it's entirely possible it happens very differently to this in the show but I cant see any Canon confirmed events that actively go against what you've said, and subtext/ voicing of the characters seems to support the main idea even if I've gone haywire with the specifics.

Ty for asking for my input! Vox is a fun character to talk about! =3.

(Also petition for a Vox and Al duet in a flashback because I want a parallel to stayed gone, and this show seems to progress individual characters/duos the best in song format)

Saw your comment abt having a long theory/headcanon abt Al and Vox's Alliance/friendship, so like, share with the class, I need to hear every single theory abt them, I'm so normal abt them

Well since you asked~: I think that they not only had an alliance but it was actually ALASTOR that formed it. I know a lot of people think Vox would be the one to approach Al, I don’t think that would work. Vox would either be a nobody or a newcomer at the time they would meet. Al is arrogant and likes to be in control of things. He wouldn’t hear out Vox. BUT other way around makes sense. Alastor could have used the reasoning of “I’m bored and wanna see if alliances are entertaining” or (my theory) “This guy’s power can boost my own and vice versa…plus, I don’t want to do all the boring Overlord paperwork.” Because if the whole “Alastor became an Overlord due to technicality” thing is still canon, then he wouldn’t have signed up for anything but his own goals. Vox was probably atleast kinda interested in Alastor and also saw the potential of teaming. They worked kinda well up until their individual flaws started to bother each other. And no, I don’t think the main reason was: Old vs New. I think it was the conflicts underneath that issue that led to them becoming enemies. Actual conflicts: 1) Alastor is a mysterious loner who likes to keep things close to chest and Vox literally has cameras everywhere and wants to be on top of everything going on. Including with what his business partners are doing. 2) Alastor is arrogant and hates change, especially changing things for others (“People don’t like my radio shows? Don’t care! I do it for myself and those that do like it”) and Vox constantly needing attention and validation due to his own insecurity (“I’m losing viewers?! Quick, what trending right now? Or how can I improve this to be better?”). And finally 3) They both have tempers and think they’re usually in the right.

This also makes me think that it had to be Vox’s fault (Kinda) for the ‘breakup’. Alastor has been shown to be too stubborn to admit when he’s wrong and too tolerant of people doing things he shouldn’t tolerate just because they either get on his good side or are useful to him (*cough* Mimzy *cough*). So he probably would tolerate (to a degree) Vox’s constant need for attention and validation and constant push for fame and change. But, Al also has strict lines in the sand he won’t stand and when they’re crossed he snaps VERY aggressively (Husk touching a secretive matter when he is already pissed off in that hallway scene). So I can easily see Vox ‘improving’ (completely modernizing it or just putting things in there without permission) Alastor’s radio station as being enough to make Al destroy their alliance for good and make Vox look really bad. And this would also explain how the other Overlords see the Vees. Vox got a seat on their table by being buddy buddy with one of the most feared and THE most unpredictable Overlord. But if their partnership failing was seen as Alastor deeming the newcomer as a failure then the other Overlords would see Vox and the other Vees in a similar negative way (“Smug wannabes, who don’t heed when they’ve been warned!” -Carmilla). Because despite Zestiel questioning Alastor and Carmilla’s snide remark, they still treat Alastor (Guy who disappeared for 7 YEARS and hasn’t been doing much after killing other OVERLORDS they probably knew for a longer time) with a lot of respect. Zestiel still gives him proper greetings and more respectfully talks to him versus how he talks to Velvette. And Carmilla, still does welcome him back. He literally sits near the oldest out of all of them and the leader of the meeting. VS Carmilla acting like the Vees were either expected not to show or weren’t even invited. Zestiel rudely interrupting Vel while she’s talking, to point out how she’s wrong without letting her finish. And again, Vel seems to assume the end of the table is for her, as if the Vees are usually seated at the very last spot available. And the Vees have been around for those 7 years gaining more power. Almost like the old-timers once gave the newcomers a chance at the table but they ruined it for themselves. (*cough* one of the most powerful and vicious overlords in a group took one of you under his wing and you somehow ended up destroying that powerful alliance and replacing it with a loud pimp and a rude brat. *cough*)

SO…That my Ted-Talk. I basically do think Al and Vox were a famously good alliance at one point amongst the Overlords but when their flaws got on each other’s nerves and they ‘broke up’ (professionally/platonically), even the other Overlords simply around the two started to pick sides. I.E: Old-timers seeing the arrogance and foolishness of the young blood vs The Vees seeing a bunch of pompous fossils refusing to change for the better.

P.S. This makes me REALLY curious about Miss Zeezi since she obviously is from a more modern era (70s or 90s). Did she somehow get on the Vees bad side and that made the old-timers like her or something? Or did one of the Old guys do what Al and Vox did but make it work this time?

May I present, Mother.

Export quality of this ain’t great but I don’t do complex rendering so who cares lmao.

Among all the redesigns I just wanted to imagine what a character with already decent design would look if the animation style was just that bit more complex. I like Rosie but she needed accessorising just a bit more.

Anyway here’s the annotated version if you want to see why I chose to do what I did.

Visual representation of the process.

Haven’t drawn in a while so I traced the basic shapes in black then went from there. Freaky demon proportions are more forgiving than human tho so I don’t think I did too bad. =3

If I see the phrases "a student carries out an experiment...", "initially the ____ are moving with x velocity", "in a recent study it was discovered that.....", "with respect to x", "prove by induction" or "describe the transformation" any more I am GOING to EAT my equation sheets. (There's like 30+ double sided pages)

"Discuss the moral, legal and ethical consequences of...." DISCUSS THE MORAL LEGAL AND ETHICAL CONSEQUENCES OF ME BEING ALLOWED TO LIVE ANOTHER DAY MOTHERFUCKER.

Like I had a dream of Season 2 last night, and weirdly it seemed exactly like what Season 2 might actually be like in terms of reveals. Like it turned out Alastor was actually a fraud, he didn’t kill all those overlords when he first got to Hell, but rather lied and said he did, and began attaining some power over the years with that rep, never a lot but enough to beat out smaller names, that being why he was so dependent on smaller deals like those he had Rosie keep an eye out for. He wasn’t pacing himself but desperately trying to live up to the myth of the Radio Demon. And it turned out Husk had been more powerful than Alastor when he acquired his soul, and the day he did was just as stressful for Alastor as it was for Husk. Then Vox tried to have him join the Vees, Alastor turned him down since he didn’t want to truth of his power being much lower than thought being found out, they got in a fight, and Alastor was legitimately hurt but managed to hide it and leave before Vox realised, just as he did with Adam. Alastor then encountered the real force responsible for those overlords going missing: Eve, the first woman. Basically in the world of ‘Hazbin’, before Heaven and Hell, there was simply Good and Evil, literal personifications, concepts given awareness. Good was the first to gain mass, becoming God, creating the angels and then Earth, Adam, Lilith, Eve, while Evil was left a simple force, until Lilith formed the apple of free will and gave it to Eve, infecting her with Evil, and so she became its embodiment, God’s counterpart in evil. Who could be seen in the opening storybook in the first episode, Go(o)d a closed eye amongst clouds, Evil a red eye(s) and smile amongst darkness, I checked once I woke up to ensure that shot was real. So basically all descendants of hers, humanity, would have both good and evil within them: the reason Adam was in Heaven was that in spite of being a jerk, he never had Evil as a concept within him. So what neither Alastor or Eve would have known was that because of this, he was among the few that could ever kill her (Evil), and now that Niffty took him out of the picture, the only ones left who could do so are Lilith and Charlie, the only ones of human descent not to be infected with Evil on some level (angels not having the right stuff to make it work). Anyway my dream had it that Alastor and Lilith hadn’t really met, but once Alastor made his deal with Eve, and she got herself a representative, Lilith felt it, and immediately fled to Heaven. And we would find this out since in Season 2, overlords started to go missing again as they once did before, only this time Alastor couldn’t really claim credit. My dream ended before it was clear who had killed them, whether it was Eve trying to find a new rep (the process having dissolved the souls of most whose wills were not powerful enough to escape her, before she had found Alastor, who would have spent the seven years he was gone attempting to escape her mass, regain corporeality to act on Eve’s behalf), or whether it was Lilith trying to figure out which overlord was Eve’s rep and wipe them out, but it did feature Vox be killed later on in the season, and Valentino and Velvette had a beautiful mournful ballad in response to this, like with her being the source of all Evil in this world I could have seen Val apologists in real life saying all he did wasn’t his fault because of her, what her influence did, which wouldn’t be great, but the scene my mind came up with was (great). So anyway Alastor’s purpose would have been to prevent redemption within Hell from being possible, since it would ruin Eve. It seemed surprisingly plausible to canon as we know it: I was thoroughly impressed with my subconscious mind on waking up.

That was a roller coaster and I NEED other people to read it i love it. The bit about the personification of evil actually rings true because of the character of Roo! But I think most of the stuff around Roo is theory rather than cannon (pretty sure its short for root of all evil). Alastor being a fraud while not really on my radar as a potential theory would be HILLARIOUS so even though cannon points against it I'd totally read a fic on it. Your points on Lilith and Eve are quite interesting and while I'm not sure I've fully grasped the idea I am intrigued. Eve making the deal is certainly my preference rather than Lilith making the deal.

Also yes a mournful ballad would be amazing done by Val and Vel.

Your subconscious is clearly a beautiful thing , thank you for blessing my inbox. =3