First Of All, Thank You For Quoting The Important Parts Here, I Only Have The German Edition (which Has

First of all, thank you for quoting the important parts here, I only have the german edition (which has some weird translated names for some reason and is double as long) and it would take me forever to find the right translation. But in general the fact that Theon carries Ice is so screwed up, whenever I think about it, it makes me sick that this poor 19 year old has to carry the sword that might behead him to the man that might behead him, to actually execute someone. I don’t think that it’s unusual for a ward to do, but it is so fucked up for a hostage to be put in this situation. We don’t have Ned’s POV here, but he’s unsually not that unsensible that he would completly oversee this.

But I don’t think that Theon contiously puts on a smile, I think it’s a subcontious coping mechanism, that he’s not aware of why he’d doing it. But Jon is definitly not at the character point where he would recognize that. Bran does see something about Theon’s behaviour, especially in the later chapters with them, but he’s too young to understand it. But Theon is definitly old enought to understand what the whole execution means and what he’s being remindede of. As if he could do anything about it.

I love Theon being included in fanarts and storys with the Stark family as much an anybody. Just the way Robb would have wanted it.

But the next person that says that the show did Theon and Ned’s relationship better by saying that Ned was like a father to Theon is going to hear from me.

He was a HOSTAGE!

You can call him his ward all you want. BookTheon said himself that Ned was not a father to him, the few times he acted fatherly towards him, Theon thought of it as worse, because they both (unlike the rest of the Stark family, minus Cat it seems) had a really good understanding of what Theons position in Winterfell meant.

I like Ned but he was never Theon’s father. And as much as a dick Balon was he was Theon’s father. He neglected him and did not give a fuck and saw him as nothing but a dissapointment (like every other familymember that isn’t Asha) but for Theon he was his father.

And Ned treated Theon like you are supposed to treat a highborn hostage. Maybe he let Robb spend too much friend time with Theon, but that’s about it. Everything else (education, good food, rich clothing) is normal hostage treatment we see in Sansa and Cersei just as much.

Don’t get me wrong, Ned is no Cersei, he is never shown to think that Theon owns him anything (even if they didn’t have scenes together, I don’t think Ned is that delusional), whereas Cersei thinks Sansa should be greatful.

But noone sais Sansa sees Cersei as her mother or that she should be greatful for the Lannisters treatment, but Theon should be? Just because the Starks are generally better people than Cersei and Joffrey? No.

Theon was as much a hostage as Sansa was, just for much longer and it did some psychological damage to him that can’t be undone.

Is this Ned’s fault? Also no. Ned didn’t take Theon hostage because he wanted to, it was an outcome from a war Theon was not responsible in any way of. Theon is innocent of his situation as a hostage to the Starks.

And Ned treats him as a highborn hostage. He raises him, feeds him, trains him and would most likely execute him if neccessairy. Would he like it -definitly no, but Ned killed innocent Lady as he was ordered by the king (I know she was a wolf, but still).

So no, Theon Greyjoy hostage of Ned Stark did not see the man as his father.

He saw Balon Greyjoy as his father, may he be a terrible father but to Theon he was his father.

Honestly the only decent father role Theon has is Dagmer anyways. In this essay I will…

Technically you are absolulty right, as points made they make him less sympathetic but they aren’t really portayed in that context.

Wheras Theon gets called a turncloak by pretty much everybody post Ramsay (which is a debatable term, considering he choose his father over the house that kept him hostage) but show Theon gets mostly called out for Bran and Rickon by Sansa but not for betraying Robb.

And once it’s known to Sansa than he didn’t kill Bran and Rickon everything is kind off off the table. As if it was never an issue that he took Winterfell, only that he killed Bran and Rickon. And if you never mention it, I suppose that makes him more sympathetic in the eyes of a casual viewer who hasn’t been reminded that taking Winterfell was an actual issue.

I think in general a lot of people seem to have an issue with Theon choosing Balon over Robb, but like - it was his father against his friend, who technically still held him hostage. And he grew up with Robb, Robb who went to war for his father. But when Theon decides to fight for his it’s bad.

Yes Balon is a bad father and a bad king, but he is still Theon’s father and he had to choose a king and chose his family over Robb, it’s an understandable thing to do.

And practically the show makes it seem that it makes no sense that Theon takes his fathers side, because the Starks are so great (I love them, but I still get why Theon choose Balon.).

I would say, don’t watch more than that. Maybe one of two scenes are worth it. Jamie and Edmure in Riverrun is right out of the books (baby catapult) and it’s so well acted, but season 5 was the start point of the declining of the show and you can notice that. Acting is still amazing, cinematography is still amazing, the costumes are (for the most part) still amazing, the music is fantastic, but the plot isn’t really worth it for the most part.

Your post about Theon's Position in Winterfell was absolutely brilliant and I couldn't agree more. But what do you think is the reason for this misconception by so many fans. The books make it very clear. And if I remember correctly there where 3 dialogs just in season one about Theon position as an hostage. And credit where credit is due, I think those where quite good. So it really confuses me why so many fans (especially show fans) seem to misunderstand Theon's situation.

Well there is a scene with Ramsay in season 3 episode 4 where Theon literally sais "My real father lost his head at king's landing.", which tells us 2 things.

1. The showrunners have no idea about Theon Greyjoy and Ned Stark.

2. The showrunners also have no idea that being a hostage for 10 years does psychological damage to you.

I could make a really long list of characters they screwed up by just leaving so much out that the only thing left about them is the shell of their plot without having their core character traits even being there anymore, but in this case it shows so well.

Why would someone say that the man who held them prisoner for a decade is their “real father”? I get it, Ned is a great and interesting character but that doesn’t make him the best person in the world but as the seasons went on, the showrunners decided that whenever someone talked about him he became better person by modern standarts, instead of a decent person by Westeros standarts.

They  changed pretty much everything about the conversation he had with Arya in season 1, when Arya talked about it in season 8 (aka Ned is now pro Arya taking on “masculin traits” for some reason).

And that season 3 scene just shows that really well. There’s a lot more where they screwed Theon up, but at least we had the fantastic Alfie Allen playing him to make up for that.

No need to apologize, you weren’t rude or anything and even if you would think that Theon’s smiles are contious I would have just asked on why =) I think in general Jon had so much character growth, espeically if you look at how he treats other people. In general all characters have a way of thinking of themselves better as they are because of their status. I think it’s a lot more forgiving for those who are children, because they are young and still learning, but someone like Tyrion, who is actually used to getting belittled for something he has no control over is something different. Theon suffers from that too. And so does Jon which you can see immediatly at the start with Grenn and Pyp in the training yard. He grows more and more out of it. And Theon did get better but on a complelty different level, because his journey and issues are different of course and come from comparable but different places. Honestly these two share quiet a lot of things but their coping mechanism are opposites which is why they dislike each other so much. Imagine them sitting down and talking about it (absolulty out of character, but that would solve the issues they have between one another). But I would also love to see them together in a later point. Especially if Jeyne makes it to Jon and tells him Theon saved her. Especially because unlike the rest of the North Jon definitly knows that she isn’t Arya and that Theon knew aswell, so he clearly didn’t save her to help himself, aka mercy due to saying Arya.

I love Theon being included in fanarts and storys with the Stark family as much an anybody. Just the way Robb would have wanted it.

But the next person that says that the show did Theon and Ned’s relationship better by saying that Ned was like a father to Theon is going to hear from me.

He was a HOSTAGE!

You can call him his ward all you want. BookTheon said himself that Ned was not a father to him, the few times he acted fatherly towards him, Theon thought of it as worse, because they both (unlike the rest of the Stark family, minus Cat it seems) had a really good understanding of what Theons position in Winterfell meant.

I like Ned but he was never Theon’s father. And as much as a dick Balon was he was Theon’s father. He neglected him and did not give a fuck and saw him as nothing but a dissapointment (like every other familymember that isn’t Asha) but for Theon he was his father.

And Ned treated Theon like you are supposed to treat a highborn hostage. Maybe he let Robb spend too much friend time with Theon, but that’s about it. Everything else (education, good food, rich clothing) is normal hostage treatment we see in Sansa and Cersei just as much.

Don’t get me wrong, Ned is no Cersei, he is never shown to think that Theon owns him anything (even if they didn’t have scenes together, I don’t think Ned is that delusional), whereas Cersei thinks Sansa should be greatful.

But noone sais Sansa sees Cersei as her mother or that she should be greatful for the Lannisters treatment, but Theon should be? Just because the Starks are generally better people than Cersei and Joffrey? No.

Theon was as much a hostage as Sansa was, just for much longer and it did some psychological damage to him that can’t be undone.

Is this Ned’s fault? Also no. Ned didn’t take Theon hostage because he wanted to, it was an outcome from a war Theon was not responsible in any way of. Theon is innocent of his situation as a hostage to the Starks.

And Ned treats him as a highborn hostage. He raises him, feeds him, trains him and would most likely execute him if neccessairy. Would he like it -definitly no, but Ned killed innocent Lady as he was ordered by the king (I know she was a wolf, but still).

So no, Theon Greyjoy hostage of Ned Stark did not see the man as his father.

He saw Balon Greyjoy as his father, may he be a terrible father but to Theon he was his father.

Honestly the only decent father role Theon has is Dagmer anyways. In this essay I will…

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#And they made all the morally grey characters super nice and sympathetic.

Just noticed it now. ijustdontknowwhatimdoing hid the truest part about all of it in the tags. Or like most characters are morally grey, but in GoT they are suddently not anymore?

Your post about Theon's Position in Winterfell was absolutely brilliant and I couldn't agree more. But what do you think is the reason for this misconception by so many fans. The books make it very clear. And if I remember correctly there where 3 dialogs just in season one about Theon position as an hostage. And credit where credit is due, I think those where quite good. So it really confuses me why so many fans (especially show fans) seem to misunderstand Theon's situation.

Well there is a scene with Ramsay in season 3 episode 4 where Theon literally sais "My real father lost his head at king's landing.", which tells us 2 things.

1. The showrunners have no idea about Theon Greyjoy and Ned Stark.

2. The showrunners also have no idea that being a hostage for 10 years does psychological damage to you.

I could make a really long list of characters they screwed up by just leaving so much out that the only thing left about them is the shell of their plot without having their core character traits even being there anymore, but in this case it shows so well.

Why would someone say that the man who held them prisoner for a decade is their “real father”? I get it, Ned is a great and interesting character but that doesn’t make him the best person in the world but as the seasons went on, the showrunners decided that whenever someone talked about him he became better person by modern standarts, instead of a decent person by Westeros standarts.

They  changed pretty much everything about the conversation he had with Arya in season 1, when Arya talked about it in season 8 (aka Ned is now pro Arya taking on “masculin traits” for some reason).

And that season 3 scene just shows that really well. There’s a lot more where they screwed Theon up, but at least we had the fantastic Alfie Allen playing him to make up for that.

Honestly if I ever had a goal on this page it was getting reblooged by one of my favourite authors on our favourite character.

I love Theon being included in fanarts and storys with the Stark family as much an anybody. Just the way Robb would have wanted it.

But the next person that says that the show did Theon and Ned’s relationship better by saying that Ned was like a father to Theon is going to hear from me.

He was a HOSTAGE!

You can call him his ward all you want. BookTheon said himself that Ned was not a father to him, the few times he acted fatherly towards him, Theon thought of it as worse, because they both (unlike the rest of the Stark family, minus Cat it seems) had a really good understanding of what Theons position in Winterfell meant.

I like Ned but he was never Theon’s father. And as much as a dick Balon was he was Theon’s father. He neglected him and did not give a fuck and saw him as nothing but a dissapointment (like every other familymember that isn’t Asha) but for Theon he was his father.

And Ned treated Theon like you are supposed to treat a highborn hostage. Maybe he let Robb spend too much friend time with Theon, but that’s about it. Everything else (education, good food, rich clothing) is normal hostage treatment we see in Sansa and Cersei just as much.

Don’t get me wrong, Ned is no Cersei, he is never shown to think that Theon owns him anything (even if they didn’t have scenes together, I don’t think Ned is that delusional), whereas Cersei thinks Sansa should be greatful.

But noone sais Sansa sees Cersei as her mother or that she should be greatful for the Lannisters treatment, but Theon should be? Just because the Starks are generally better people than Cersei and Joffrey? No.

Theon was as much a hostage as Sansa was, just for much longer and it did some psychological damage to him that can’t be undone.

Is this Ned’s fault? Also no. Ned didn’t take Theon hostage because he wanted to, it was an outcome from a war Theon was not responsible in any way of. Theon is innocent of his situation as a hostage to the Starks.

And Ned treats him as a highborn hostage. He raises him, feeds him, trains him and would most likely execute him if neccessairy. Would he like it -definitly no, but Ned killed innocent Lady as he was ordered by the king (I know she was a wolf, but still).

So no, Theon Greyjoy hostage of Ned Stark did not see the man as his father.

He saw Balon Greyjoy as his father, may he be a terrible father but to Theon he was his father.

Honestly the only decent father role Theon has is Dagmer anyways. In this essay I will…