Technically You Are Absolulty Right, As Points Made They Make Him Less Sympathetic But They Arent Really

Technically you are absolulty right, as points made they make him less sympathetic but they aren’t really portayed in that context.

Wheras Theon gets called a turncloak by pretty much everybody post Ramsay (which is a debatable term, considering he choose his father over the house that kept him hostage) but show Theon gets mostly called out for Bran and Rickon by Sansa but not for betraying Robb.

And once it’s known to Sansa than he didn’t kill Bran and Rickon everything is kind off off the table. As if it was never an issue that he took Winterfell, only that he killed Bran and Rickon. And if you never mention it, I suppose that makes him more sympathetic in the eyes of a casual viewer who hasn’t been reminded that taking Winterfell was an actual issue.

I think in general a lot of people seem to have an issue with Theon choosing Balon over Robb, but like - it was his father against his friend, who technically still held him hostage. And he grew up with Robb, Robb who went to war for his father. But when Theon decides to fight for his it’s bad.

Yes Balon is a bad father and a bad king, but he is still Theon’s father and he had to choose a king and chose his family over Robb, it’s an understandable thing to do.

And practically the show makes it seem that it makes no sense that Theon takes his fathers side, because the Starks are so great (I love them, but I still get why Theon choose Balon.).

I would say, don’t watch more than that. Maybe one of two scenes are worth it. Jamie and Edmure in Riverrun is right out of the books (baby catapult) and it’s so well acted, but season 5 was the start point of the declining of the show and you can notice that. Acting is still amazing, cinematography is still amazing, the costumes are (for the most part) still amazing, the music is fantastic, but the plot isn’t really worth it for the most part.

Your post about Theon's Position in Winterfell was absolutely brilliant and I couldn't agree more. But what do you think is the reason for this misconception by so many fans. The books make it very clear. And if I remember correctly there where 3 dialogs just in season one about Theon position as an hostage. And credit where credit is due, I think those where quite good. So it really confuses me why so many fans (especially show fans) seem to misunderstand Theon's situation.

Well there is a scene with Ramsay in season 3 episode 4 where Theon literally sais "My real father lost his head at king's landing.", which tells us 2 things.

1. The showrunners have no idea about Theon Greyjoy and Ned Stark.

2. The showrunners also have no idea that being a hostage for 10 years does psychological damage to you.

I could make a really long list of characters they screwed up by just leaving so much out that the only thing left about them is the shell of their plot without having their core character traits even being there anymore, but in this case it shows so well.

Why would someone say that the man who held them prisoner for a decade is their “real father”? I get it, Ned is a great and interesting character but that doesn’t make him the best person in the world but as the seasons went on, the showrunners decided that whenever someone talked about him he became better person by modern standarts, instead of a decent person by Westeros standarts.

They  changed pretty much everything about the conversation he had with Arya in season 1, when Arya talked about it in season 8 (aka Ned is now pro Arya taking on “masculin traits” for some reason).

And that season 3 scene just shows that really well. There’s a lot more where they screwed Theon up, but at least we had the fantastic Alfie Allen playing him to make up for that.

Since Elliot Page just came out I started to experiece something I call “I am cool with it, but my brain hates change” again.

And it is very annoying. I have no issue with anybody coming out, transitioning, cutting their hair, choosing certain clothes, switching jobs or follwing religions, but my brain take forever to wrap aroung the fact that there is now new information about this person.

It’s like a library where every book is under a certain file and now it has to be moved into a different section and the system has to be updated that it is now there. And once all of that is done you don’t even notice anymore that it used to be somewhere else. And then one day another book has to be moved and it’s starting again. It was the same when a school friend of mine cut her hair short, it was the same when I found out that one of my coworkers told me he felt god and it was the same when a former friend of mine had his coming out to me. Everbody thinks I react weird or bad, when i am just still in processing mode. This is also why I am not great in fast situations in general. Give me a couple days time and I will get through anything that comes up with a solution and 5 backup solutions if the first one doesn’t work out but ask me for something right now and you will get nothing out of me.

Anybody else experience this “I am cool with it, but my brain hates change” feeling that information feels like it takes to long to process that it does for other people that can just say cool and move on instead of replaying the information in their head for a couple days until it is filed up/ changed to true/ clicked in?

But anyways good for Elliot Page, congrats, I will process this information in about a week because I am sick, so everything takes even longer than usual.

I am very glad GRRM decided to give Theon PTSD pre Ramsay. The fact that Theon gets PTSD in the middle of the war, because he has a break is showing that GRRM has an understanding of both PTSD and that torture doesn’t make you a better person or whatever D&D were going for. Theon developed PTSD during a break in war for him, he started his nightmares about dead people which is something that can totally happen to any person that is coming out of the adrenalin rush of survival (of any sort, but in this case war). The other thing is, Theon subcotiously started to regret his actions, deciding against Robb, letting bad come to the smallfolk of Winterfell, that were in no way at fault for his hostage status and the killing of the miller’s boys, as much as he tries to tell himself that they were JUST the miller’s boys and therefore for war purposes not important. But something in him knows that this is bs, that is is wrong to kill these innocent children and all of that triggers his PTSD way before Ramsay starts torturing him. The way it’s done in GoT shows Theon showing regret and remorse after he gets tortured, wich implys that his change in character comes from said torture whereas book!Theon has this point way before. And that is way better. Being a victim does not make you stronger or a better character. Reflecting on your actions and knowing they were bad does. Torture will just screw your brain up, it will not make you a better person, it will just fuck you up. But apperrently D&D think differently- The same thing happend to Jamie aswell, just saying.

I don’t mind character changes too much, if they make sense and are pulled through until the end in general, For example Cersei is way nicer in the show, than in the books, but al least it was worked until the very end, wheras they sometimes choose book traits/arks/quirks in the show, as if they were always in there. Like Cersei’s 3 children prophecy, but in the pilot she said she had a first child with Robert. And they forgot to say 4 children instead of 3 (would’ve worked really well into it actually, she just thinks the first one wasn’t old enought yet, so maybe the new one would be the forth).

And as much as I love Alfie Allens performance on that beach fight. The smile was right out of the books, it’s not at present in the show. A casual watcher would have definitly missed that he used to smile all the time and stopped with Ramsays torture.

And that Cat scene about Jon actually makes her treatment to Jon worse, because they made her say that she wanted to try to love Jon but in the end she just didn’t even try? That’s worse than just not being able to love Jon or treat him better, because it’s not his fault.

And we haven’t even touched Arya and Tywin. Definitly one of the best acted arcs, with some of the best show dialog, but with zero sense towards the plot at all.

And in general the making a book character that is deeply flawed, less flawed to make them more sympathetic is a big GoT issue. Not just on Theon, but Ned, Tyrion, Robert or Dany get that treatment and it takes away so much of these characters, but in some cases (especially Tyrion) it takes the whole character ark away.

Tysha was just a whore and Tyrion never raped her. Theon doesn’t get PTSD from taking Winterfell, he gets it from getting tortured, Ned was the perfect Dad after his death, Robert was a cool guy and wasn’t it fun that one time he hit his wife (only once, only a slap, not that he knocked out 2 of Joffreys teeth or only hit Cersei where Jamie didn’t see or anything)

I think a lot of times Stark family members should have talked about Robb (and Cat), but Ned is the only one that gets mentioned. As if the whole North would just forget their King, as if the Stark siblings would just forget their older brother and as if Theon of all people would forget about Robb, where his whole conflit comes down to choosing Balon over Robb.

But hey, they made Robb marry Talist for love instead of Jeyne because of duty, so why would they mention him at all. I think the only time he even is mentioned later on is by Sansa when she warns Jon, that’s all that Robb is getting.

And now I’m at the point again of noticing how many characters they made changed to, that just made no sense (I get changing Theon’s torture, I wouldn#t want Alfie Allen to get down to an unhealthy weight. I get Tyrion not loosing his nose CGI is expensive, but I do not get changing Robb’s storyline like this, it just accomplishes nothing but making his character an idiot. He was never great at diplomacy but this is straight up stupid and goes directly against Ned’s upbringing.)

And now I want to see the bookTheon plot in Winterfell with Alfie playing slowly spiraling from PTSD and Ramsay whispering into his ear about ways to make it look as if Bran and Rickon were dead. Imagine this amazing and talented actor doing the original scene. We were robbed!

Your post about Theon's Position in Winterfell was absolutely brilliant and I couldn't agree more. But what do you think is the reason for this misconception by so many fans. The books make it very clear. And if I remember correctly there where 3 dialogs just in season one about Theon position as an hostage. And credit where credit is due, I think those where quite good. So it really confuses me why so many fans (especially show fans) seem to misunderstand Theon's situation.

Well there is a scene with Ramsay in season 3 episode 4 where Theon literally sais "My real father lost his head at king's landing.", which tells us 2 things.

1. The showrunners have no idea about Theon Greyjoy and Ned Stark.

2. The showrunners also have no idea that being a hostage for 10 years does psychological damage to you.

I could make a really long list of characters they screwed up by just leaving so much out that the only thing left about them is the shell of their plot without having their core character traits even being there anymore, but in this case it shows so well.

Why would someone say that the man who held them prisoner for a decade is their “real father”? I get it, Ned is a great and interesting character but that doesn’t make him the best person in the world but as the seasons went on, the showrunners decided that whenever someone talked about him he became better person by modern standarts, instead of a decent person by Westeros standarts.

They  changed pretty much everything about the conversation he had with Arya in season 1, when Arya talked about it in season 8 (aka Ned is now pro Arya taking on “masculin traits” for some reason).

And that season 3 scene just shows that really well. There’s a lot more where they screwed Theon up, but at least we had the fantastic Alfie Allen playing him to make up for that.

No need to apologize, you weren’t rude or anything and even if you would think that Theon’s smiles are contious I would have just asked on why =) I think in general Jon had so much character growth, espeically if you look at how he treats other people. In general all characters have a way of thinking of themselves better as they are because of their status. I think it’s a lot more forgiving for those who are children, because they are young and still learning, but someone like Tyrion, who is actually used to getting belittled for something he has no control over is something different. Theon suffers from that too. And so does Jon which you can see immediatly at the start with Grenn and Pyp in the training yard. He grows more and more out of it. And Theon did get better but on a complelty different level, because his journey and issues are different of course and come from comparable but different places. Honestly these two share quiet a lot of things but their coping mechanism are opposites which is why they dislike each other so much. Imagine them sitting down and talking about it (absolulty out of character, but that would solve the issues they have between one another). But I would also love to see them together in a later point. Especially if Jeyne makes it to Jon and tells him Theon saved her. Especially because unlike the rest of the North Jon definitly knows that she isn’t Arya and that Theon knew aswell, so he clearly didn’t save her to help himself, aka mercy due to saying Arya.

I love Theon being included in fanarts and storys with the Stark family as much an anybody. Just the way Robb would have wanted it.

But the next person that says that the show did Theon and Ned’s relationship better by saying that Ned was like a father to Theon is going to hear from me.

He was a HOSTAGE!

You can call him his ward all you want. BookTheon said himself that Ned was not a father to him, the few times he acted fatherly towards him, Theon thought of it as worse, because they both (unlike the rest of the Stark family, minus Cat it seems) had a really good understanding of what Theons position in Winterfell meant.

I like Ned but he was never Theon’s father. And as much as a dick Balon was he was Theon’s father. He neglected him and did not give a fuck and saw him as nothing but a dissapointment (like every other familymember that isn’t Asha) but for Theon he was his father.

And Ned treated Theon like you are supposed to treat a highborn hostage. Maybe he let Robb spend too much friend time with Theon, but that’s about it. Everything else (education, good food, rich clothing) is normal hostage treatment we see in Sansa and Cersei just as much.

Don’t get me wrong, Ned is no Cersei, he is never shown to think that Theon owns him anything (even if they didn’t have scenes together, I don’t think Ned is that delusional), whereas Cersei thinks Sansa should be greatful.

But noone sais Sansa sees Cersei as her mother or that she should be greatful for the Lannisters treatment, but Theon should be? Just because the Starks are generally better people than Cersei and Joffrey? No.

Theon was as much a hostage as Sansa was, just for much longer and it did some psychological damage to him that can’t be undone.

Is this Ned’s fault? Also no. Ned didn’t take Theon hostage because he wanted to, it was an outcome from a war Theon was not responsible in any way of. Theon is innocent of his situation as a hostage to the Starks.

And Ned treats him as a highborn hostage. He raises him, feeds him, trains him and would most likely execute him if neccessairy. Would he like it -definitly no, but Ned killed innocent Lady as he was ordered by the king (I know she was a wolf, but still).

So no, Theon Greyjoy hostage of Ned Stark did not see the man as his father.

He saw Balon Greyjoy as his father, may he be a terrible father but to Theon he was his father.

Honestly the only decent father role Theon has is Dagmer anyways. In this essay I will…

So I haven’t watched Supernatural since like season 11 and I never paid attention to what the actors were doing in their private life (because I have better things to do, I got my own problems I don’t need to see actors making comments the internet will interpret in 500 different ways).

But since the whole Destiel thing came up and I watched the scene and came up with the comments I became curious.

Are people saving

-Dean is homophobic because of the general scenes he had -Dean is homophobis because of the love reveal scene -Jensen Ackles homophobic because of his acting in the scene -Jensen Ackles homophobic because of something he said/did before this -are the showwriters generally homophobic because Destiel is only now canon -are the showwriter homophobic because they made the sense the way it was -are the showwriter generally homophobic because they said somthing before this (other than queerbaiting) ? Does somebody has answers for me?