Character Discourse - Tumblr Posts

These are so many words to say you didn't understand the point of the original post and usually I have manners and would ignore... But I'm gonna leave this here because you all are so annoying:

This whole "There isn't one true canon" to justify the horrible, ignorant and terrible way batfam fandom treats Lex is ridiculous. It doesn't matter if you prefer some random comic of 40 pages written by someone who hated Lex, the major AND bigger canon has always been that no, he doesn't care about any hero but Superman. No, he doesn't care about Bruce Wayne at all. Yes, Lex is the smartest man of Earth. Yes, Lex has complex emotions about Kon and calls him son!

And hey! No, it's not okay to assassinate characters just because you "prefer that canon". It's hilarious to me that people will defend the assassination of a character by an ignorant fandom and then argue that they are picky with stories and "Talia sleeping with Jason didn't happen!" you cannot make this stuff up, I swear only DC fandom is this ridiculous.

Tim wouldn't stand a single chance against Lex, and I say this as someone whose fav is Tim. My second fav is Ra's and Ra's wouldn't stand a chance against Lex either. This is me being an objective person who knows that liking a character doesn't justify completely assassinating others in the process, which obviously it's something batfam fandom is unable to do.

And it's funny, truly, because people come to posts like mine to argue that "Doing Lex awful to prop up the bats it's good actually" but if someone said it's okay to do a bat dirty to prop up a super OH BOY we would see Troy burning down again. It's not like I expect bat fans to ever understand the situation and I don't care because I have moved on from that side of fandom since it usually is awful to characters like Selina, Jean-Paul and Ra's so the hate towards Lex doesn't surprise me anymore. I get how awful it can be to know Lex has so many things Bruce never will have... 🤭

Anyway! The assassination bat fans have towards Lex isn't right nor correct and it will never be. Making Lex homophobic isn't funny. Pretending he's some rich guy who comes from old money (that's Bruce btw) when he's the son of migrants just shows ignorance. Making jokes about him being republican shows that people have never picked up a comic. This whole situation is born from ignorant, unmature and annoying batfam fans and fandom wanting to pretend that's a valid attitude it's proof about how awful behavior it's justified when it's a majority doing so.

And again, Tim wouldn't stand a chance against Lex even if he were as stupid to try. Tim would need to be extremely immature and have the opposite of character growth to ever think he can trick Lex into being vulnerable and defeat him, and Lex wouldn't ever be vulnerable in the first place because that's literally how Lex character is: He doesn't trust anyone, he doesn't forgive, he doesn't leave untied knots, he's a genius that only Superman himself can go against to. Tim didn't *win* over Ra's so what makes people think he would win over Lex besides a blatant mischaracterization and ignorance of the real stories that have taken place in comics?

But hey, if we are gonna play this game of "It's okay to do so because people have different tastes" then I guess we can all proceed to be awful gen fans who bring up random no context panels to justify being awful to established characters! It's okay because I prefer that single representation of them over the years of history they have! 🤷

Whatever. Same old awful batfam fandom trying to justify their actions. How unsurprising.

Idk where the whole "Tim hating Lex and being annoying to him and somehow being smarter" comes from... Oh, wait! I know where it comes from!

Annoying, ignorant batfam fans

And it's not even surprising if we take a careful look. We're talking about the fandom that doesn't understand Clark, Kon and Jon at all and uses them for batfam prop up purposes. It's the same fandom that doesn't even comprehend Batman characters and says the most disgusting stuff about Jean-Paul Valley (aka Azrael) as if his character wasn't summarized in like, five comics you can easily read. The same fandom that doesn't get Selina Kyle despite the fact that movies like The Batman exist, that the Long Halloween got an animated adaptation, that she has DOZENS of praised comics you can pick up to understand her. The same fandom that doesn't understand freaking Ra's al Ghul as if the guy didn't have a trilogy that literally summarizes his character and also he's an archetype, how the hell do you get an archetype so popular as his as wrong as batfam fandom does?

*insert Misty breathing loudly here*

Okay I kind of got off the point. I was talking about the annoying portrayal of Tim and Lex, because those who do that don't even understand Tim. Tim would *love* to interact with Lex.

This is Lex Luthor, Superman's nemesis, the smartest man of earth. Tim would be thrilled that he can have a chance of going against him even if he's actually just standing next to a Bruce who tries to get Lex to answer a question just to get Lex drinking wine and telling Mercy to call security.

Tim is a detective, and we have seen how, despite everything, he admits greatness when he sees it. I do think he could get a bit sarcastic with Lex when on his Red Robin persona (we have seen how sarcastic he got with Ra's even when Ra's is definitely more likely to shut him up than Lex is) but I actually don't believe he would do that often as he would be too conscious that if someone is a master of speech, it's Lex Luthor. His words got him all the power of the world after all. You don't wanna start a sarcasm fight with someone like Lex.

And I believe as Tim Drake, he openly admires Lex. Maybe not in a idol way, but Lex is a genius, and I bet on the DC world Lex's career is studied both by people in economy and politics and STEM. Lex did so much with so little that I highly doubt there's a way for Tim to not admit that yes, Lex may be *bad* but he's certainly a genius and perfect at what he does. Credit where it's due, or something.

Lastly, I don't think Tim hates Lex. They aren't close enough for that, and Lex is often dancing in a grey area, and don't forget Tim is already fine with many figures in said grey space. Tim would consider Lex a danger, of course, because getting on Lex's bad side can get him killed. He also considers Lex someone who can and will do good, but Tim isn't gonna be the one to go on that trip of getting Lex to see what his genius can make for the world (that's on Clark).

The only thing Tim could dislike about Lex it's that Lex hurt Kon. And Tim loves Kon (in whatever way you prefer) and Tim comes to me as the kind of person who can't quite forget those things. He would be wary, perhaps, constantly on his tip toes when operating too close to Lex's doings and clenching his jaw when Kon interacts with the man because as much as Tim knows Lex is always in control and won't hurt Kon again... He still did. But if Tim held that against Bruce, wouldn't Bruce lose on the number of children he has hurt? Tim can't quite settle his feelings on that, but Kon got over it, so it's not something Tim keeps against Lex.

Tim is careful around Lex, and he's also a bit of a fan.

And well, he is thankful too. Lex brought Kon into the world, and Tim is thankful for that.

(My conclusion is that some batfam fans have clearly never read Superman comics but also it's funny they haven't read Batman comics either and maybe they shouldn't speak on stuff they don't know but that's just my opinion right)

Jesncin, your reply is so educated and polite (which I love!!! And huge agree btw), yet I am SCREAMING at once again seeing someone (this anon) misunderstanding Lex Luthor's character and clearly having no knowledge whatsoever of him in actual DC media.

This constant ignorance about Lex's motivations and reasons behind his evilness make my head hurt. It's almost as ridiculous as people who think Joker would be homophobic.

And yes! Lex has been coded as a person of color for years. From being written as the child/grandchild of migrants to have explicit non white features.

And I think there's something to be said about how fandom has this weird tendency of ignoring coding when it comes to characters that don't satisfy stereotypes while also encouraging headcanons based on hurtful stereotypes (coff coff thinking that making characters who are killers Mexican is cool for some reason).

People get SO uncomfortable when forced to acknowledge Lex's coding as a person of color and queer man, as well as a past victim of abuse. He is not a perfect victim, he does wrong, he shows evilness, he has power, he is arrogant. He doesn't feed people's fantasy about what people of color should be, and it makes them angry.

(P.S. Sorry for the spam, Jesncin! Your post is 1000/10 and I loved it. Extra kudos to you!)

I really hope this doesn’t come across as rude, but why did you decide to make Lex Luthor, whose motivation is basically racism and xenophobia from my understanding, a person of color? This isn’t like, a criticism, more just, I really like your JL remix stuff and you usually have cool reasons for the stuff you change, so I was surprised by this one

I understand the curiosity! But I have to point out that "you usually have cool reasons for the stuff you change, so I was surprised by this one" made me laugh, haha. Long answer coming because I have a lot of feelings- but the point in the very end is worth it, trust me.

So for one, Lex is Afro-Greek in my version. This comes from the popular headcanon that STAS/DCAU Lex is Black (and his design is based on a Greek man). His character design, skin tone, and Clancy Brown's enigmatic performance became unintentional perceived representation for Black fans (and even DC writers). And now in the Harley Quinn show, that's become canonized! For why they like it, that's not my place to say as a non-Black person- so I listen!

I don't agree that Lex's motivation is "basically racism and xenophobia"- his themes are much broader than that. It's the desire to be the Man of Tomorrow, his jealousy of Superman, the way his intellect alone is a match against Superman's strength. Sometimes that jealousy is expressed through bigotry, but it's all a means to an end for Lex. My approach is: if Lex being Black is something we want to integrate more into his character, what opportunities does that open up narratively? Because there's rich potential for him and the characters connected to him.

When discussing MAWS I talk a lot about how when you're writing a bigoted marginalized character, there needs to be specifity with where that internalized bigotry is coming from. So a change like that for Lex Luthor could, for example; discuss how privileges like wealth can assimilate otherwise marginalized people into the kind of power that harms others in their community.

The ripple affect this has on a character like Superboy/Conner is that we get to see how -even though they're both Luthors- Conner is profiled, othered and further marginalized as a Kryptonian and a Black homeless teen because he doesn't get to benefit from any of Lex's privileges. This is just part of the many reasons why I think Conner would be infinitely more interesting if he didn't look like Kal El despite being a clone. You get to see a new intersection of how the Kryptonian identity intersects with Blackness on Earth. The potential ripple effect for a character like Lena is also really fun! What if she's struggling with her own model minority pressure when she's making up for her brother's crimes? It's all very compelling!

And MOST importantly, in a 3 trillion IQ Lex Luthor-style move-making Lex Luthor Black means that some version of Matt Fraction & Steve Lieber's Superman's Pal Jimmy Olsen arc exists in my au. Which famously hinges on the twist that LEX LUTHOR AND JIMMY OLSEN ARE DISTANTLY RELATED. THEREFORE!!! We have now found a convoluted way to have Wacky Renaissance Artist Jimmy Olsen connected to The Manifestation Of Black Excellence Evil Edition Lex Luthor in this au.

I keep seeing very weird takes about Jean-Paul and J*son T*dd being "Tim Drake haters" and I am thinking about doing that analysis I have always wanted to do about how despite Azrael taking over his mind during his era as Batman, Jean-Paul was showing (messily) that he believed Tim was a kid who should not be out there as Robin as Gotham was a cruel city that would *kill him*.

But in summary, I think it says a lot that even at his worst moment and being fully taken over by his brainwashing, Jean-Paul still managed to wake up from it before hurting Tim irreversibly (the infamous choking scene). JP not only stops himself, stopping Azrael from hurting Tim, but he even apologizes and tries to speak about what's happening to him. And one can argue how the distance he puts between himself and Tim later in Knightfall is, in JP's subconscious, a way of making sure AzBats won't hurt the kid.

Hell, there IS a panel of JP saying to Catwoman how he doesn't want to hurt Tim, and implying that him (JP) is scared of endangering Tim again. Jean-Paul explicitly tells Dick that he likes Robin, and shows certain jealousy to the bond Tim and Dick have.

And this is only New Earth, in n52 Jean-Paul liked all the bats (except Dick, supposedly). Although perhaps this is taking it too far, as n52 J*son also seemed to liked all the bats. INCLUDING TIM.

So, to summarize: Jean-Paul has never hated Tim, in fact, he seemed to be the only character written as recognizing Tim was a kid who should not be doing vigilante work. And this is CONSCIOUS Jean-Paul saying these things, vs a very conscious J*son being the one deciding to take out his anger on Tim as if Tim were to blame for the whole Joker thing.

Comparing JP to J*son in any way has no objective, as their circumstances are very different and they took very different paths regarding their anger. But implying that JP is a Tim hater because people want J*son to have someone who's also taking their anger out on Tim for no reason? I'd say Damian is right there but tbh I don't want my baby bat being labeled like that either.

(Huge disclaimer: This isn't meant as J*son bashing. His character is canonically the way he is and that's fine. My issue is people wanting to turn Jean-Paul into something he ISN'T to fit another's character's narrative. In fanfic is okay but please stop pretending those ideas are objective)

I find it laughable that people eat up the FANON thing of Ra's being a sexist jerk (put it next to conservative Lex Luthor please) and the few terrible NEW retcons done to his character. People not only eat it, but preach it, yet if you dare to pull this same "canon" card with his daughter you will get crucified.

If the poc female character has nasty retcons then that's not canon! How convenient.

But if the poc male character has nasty retcons then it's canon? Huh, definitely has nothing to do with the constant need of society to label poc men as dangerous and abusers ☠️

Anyway! Never forget that the original story of Ra's (that people who swear to love his daughter should read again, apparently) has him mourning his wife to the point he can't endure the idea of loving someone else, the only reason he approached Bruce was because his daughter loved him and he never dated to underestimate women in the field ✨

(yes I love my fic Ra's a bit evil but GOD these takes...)

you'd think Ra's and Poison Ivy would hang out more given their broadly similar interest in killing tons and tons of people to "let the planet heal" or whatever. obviously there are editorial reasons for not constantly throwing two big-name villains together but from an in-universe perspective I'd like to imagine they tried to chill exactly one time and discovered they cannot fucking stand each other for reasons completely unrelated to the eco terrorism. they had like the platonic version of a one night stand and now the vibes are so rancid they can't make eye contact.