Roach Rambles - Tumblr Posts
Honestly I'd read your essay on P3 being a game about loving life because I've been holding the same essay in my head since playing the OG in like 2006 and I firmly believe it is the intended message of the game.
Persona 3 is a game about loving life, but god if I knew how to write coherently. Sorry if it's not perfect, I'm just writing off the top of my head for now.
[PERSONA 3 RELOAD FREELOADERS DNI!!!]
I could very well just talk about base game or p3r, but I feel like that'd be dishonest to my experience with persona 3.
One thing we'd have to talk about is the difference between the two protagonists. Hamuko Vs Minato is interesting because fundamentally to me they're the same people. They, at their core suffer the same kind of apathy... and the reaction is different. In all honesty this is pure speculation on my part especially since there is the dubious canonicalness of the alternative media forms but I believe the reason the difference is so big between Hamuko and Minato is because their gender forces their expression of self to be different. Like obviously there's Nihilism vs 's that meme about the two different versions of nihilism, but there's also this:
While Minato can act aloof and distant and live separate (and relatively unbothered) from other people, I've always interpreted Hamuko's more active/upbeat dialogue as... a sort of playing along? For a girl, especially a high school girl, it's probably easier to pretend to get along with everyone than act aloof and distanced since that is a common way to get singled out and bullied. While it would happen to guys as well, I think it's more typical and stronger with high school girls from my experience. Even removing my own experience it's also a common trope in media (ESPECIALLY ASIAN MEDIA) for girls who are unable to express themselves or refuse to get orchastrized. In fact, isn't this what happens to Saori?
Not only that, in the stageplay Kotone (Hamuko's stageplay name) is shown to also suffer that same indifference-- just how she shows it is different. For her, putting on that act is her way of passing under the radar- playing along with other people so they don't point her out as different and following how she's supposed to act. Her investment in others only goes surface level because that's what's best for her. (Yukari in the stage notes that she seemed to have no interest in her friends).
In contrast, Minato is like a wall. He doesn't play with how others want, but others aren't concerned with him at all. I mean you could easily make the case of him also standing out so much as well, but it doesn't matter too much. In any case both of them were unable to form full connections with others in their life before and both of them were somewhat helpless about how their life was playing out.
I think to the protagonist in most iteration where they were allowed their own self they were helpless because they didn't have a proper motivation aside from going on with motions.
This, of course they learn as they follow other people's lives. Finding out why others live.
"You all have reasons not to die, right? But I have nothing, so..."
The protagonist starts from 0.
But that changes. The more the protag goes through life, the more memories they make, the bonds they forge. It changes them. Gains something through the time they can spend with others.
The protag knows. Has known: They have something to live for- something to protect and stay with. They find their answer.
It's because they understand the beauty of life. Some, people finding their own goals and reasons to keep going. Others, finding acceptance of what's left.
I always interpreted the protagonist growing stronger after forging bond symbolic in that way. More powerful as their understanding of others deepen. As they find more and more reason to live, their ability to fight against death and the apathy that plagues them grows. Did SEES truly draw power from accepting death? Or is the instinctive will to keep living? The protagonist was alive, but they learn what it is to live. Through changing the world they inhibit, they learn what life is: Change.
Death is inevitable yes, but life does not end at death (Akinari told you as much)
Someone said the beauty of how difficult it is to 100% p3 without a guide is that it signifies the limit on life. I also think that the beauty is that I don't think anyone played p3 that first time with the thought of wasting time. Every moment, I think was spent meaningfully.
(I don't know if it's in the og since its been years, but I think P3R has more flavortext about the protaganist and their state of being as the game goes on. More reason to go on, their health increasing. Thinking about the future and such.)
IF THE PROTAGANIST DID NOT LOVE LIFE, THEY WOULD HAVE NEVER BEEN ABLE TO MAKE THE SEAL.
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We'd also have to address Aegis and Ryoji and their relationships with the protagonist. Moreso Aegis than Ryoji though (if you're following the older iterations of p3. the movies are. well. the movies. the manga . well. you know how it is.)
For the both of them, they are something inhuman learning about what it means to be alive. For Aegis, she knows the actions that humans can take, but doesn't understand the emotions behind them and the reasons humans do them. For Ryoji, he's able to carry out the emotions, but has no knowledge of the proper actions to properly convey them. They're both approximating a human being but it's something else they lack more.
There's a reason I said Ryoji understands how to "carry out" his emotions. Both of them don't understand [human connection].
Well.
And isn't that the whole point of the social link system? Isn't that becoming more and more the thesis of the Persona games?
Here, Aigis mostly only is able to connect to SEES through what she was made for. Ryoji is connecting to the inverse, able to connect to their classmates separate from who he was meant to be.
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I'm gonna separate discussing the two to make it easier though, so let's start with Ryoji, since Aigis will have lots more to go over.
I think it's not totally wrong if Ryoji... is kind of like Hamuko? Now hear me out.
I've never fully stood by the Male vs Female protags are siblings, and instead stood by the 'they are the same person' like in Persona Q2. I think at their very core, they are similar if not the same people and their expression of it contrast each other heavily.
I think Ryoji started off on something like that? Like he's his own person and he deviates from Minato and Hamuko quite a bit even from the start, but I do think having lived inside of them influenced his (core) of being. The time before the protagonists properly started making connections, they had Pharos.
Pharos was the first social link the protagonist establishes (if I'm not wrong) and I think the way Pharos acts initially, is the same understanding of the world the protagonist may have internally... just maybe with more understanding of the world but not the people in it.
Now there's heavy distinctions between the manga, the game, the stageplay, the movies, and spin offs considering about media and their ability to portray stories. You cannot tell the (exact) same story across media especially when it's initial point is a game. Forgive me if my memories of p3p and p3 are loose since I quite literally was Ken's age when I first played. (Trust me I feel insane realizing that now too).
But as time goes on you're expected to interact with others and form connections to them as Pharos himself also becomes closer to you (but also separating, becoming his own being in the process). Maybe it's because of that he's able to.
Once Ryoji is able to be, he tries starting conversations with everyone and anyone... he just doesn't fully understand why or what makes a real connection. He asks this of the protagonist, what connections are and what they mean. He doesn't get it because he's trying to mimic it without understanding it fully I think.
But he's able to form a real relationship with the protagonist. Friendship or romance, there is an understanding there. Ryoji's not aware of it and the protagonist likely isn't either, but I feel like the reason that their connection works (in a way Ryoji can understand) is because I guess in a weird way, he's not forcing it? I can't think of the right word here, and hell I can be wrong. But I do think there is some significance in Ryoji trying to befriend several people, but only mostly hanging with Junpei and the protag.
I think a little bit in this way, he's like Hamuko? Of course, I don't think it's intentional, but shrugs. I do think initially he struggles to form actual meaningful connections.
Anyways did you know apparently the song that Ryoji plays in Reload is a graduation song. Did you know that. A song about hope and existing freely. Anyways. Anyways.
Anyways, killing Ryoji being a bad ending... I don't think it's just because it's yknow, against the plot of the game or whatever. I think it's because it's forsaking a bond that the protagonist forged, it's forsaking a life that the protag had connected to. It goes against their powers I think. Their reason to live... Not just the fact they'd be forgetting everything (A majority of SEES' reason) but also appreciating the beauty of life? I guess. I'm not the most eloquent.
I think also there's something symbolic in the protag loving the call of death, yes. But there's also the embodiment of what should be calling death, being told by someone who is so intimately familiar with death and grief that life matters. Even death's own 'life', he didn't kille the aspect of 'life' in death.
(Also I couldn't figure out where to fit Ryoji's fight from the manga and the tarot's meaning being told out to the protag as the fight goes on)
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Now on one hand I can reference Aegis: The First Mission, for Aegis having already capacity for emotions and just losing it, but that was never the whole thing.
Aigis Atlus Autism Blast.
Anyways. Aigis... I think her capacity of feeling emotions being inhibited by her inability to break away from her "reason." Because her reason was still... being formulated I think? Like she kind of blocked off her capacity in order to follow this reason she was told to keep and not fully understand?
I think Aigis always had emotions it's just that it's always been held back, time and time again. I think she unintentionally forces her emotions down because she's prioritizing this [reason], before her emotions become part of her reason. I think for Aigis it genuinely about the small things. SEES can't help but consider Aigis human, even if her appearance is obviously not. Aigis can't help but have her humanity leak out of her, and its through her that SEES feels more cohesive. Like you may say that she broke out of those restrictions on her because of the protag, I think it's because each and every one of SEES is her friend. Yes shes weird, and acts out, but they cared for her.
Even way early on, Aigis had the capacity to be human even if bonds and such imply otherwise-- And I truly believe it's no other reason than Aigis herself. I think it's her lack of understanding of self, a little bit too? Like, I think she knows that the protag is part of her reason, and she genuinely doesn't know why. But it never delves into anything more personal than that until she learns the full truth. As Ryoji sheds his humanity, Aigis gains hers.
Like... Aigis is so compelling because she's so genuine about her emotions? Like simple enjoyment of being, her bluntness. She also is starting from a relative 0 like the protag does, but she's starting from not understanding the actions one takes to form a connection? Like you can very much argue that Aigis didn't, since she replies robotically, but I feel like its more so bc she didn't have that kind of care yet, personally.
GOD I'm making my case so poorly here, but her learning about life and learning about loving life to only lose the person who gave her purpose for so long. The person she loves, the person who loves her back. Losing the person who gave her that push to find her own humanity. Aigis drives me so crazy.
Like, Aigis doesn't just learn about happiness, she's forced to feel grief, forced to confront it and how to cope with it. She's forced to understand death... but she's also taught that death means you have to appreciate the time spent as well.
I think the fact she exists distinct from her purpose and the protag is her miracle of life. She finds her own answer. No one can give someone else their answer, but they can help find it. SEES fights with her, helps guide her to her answer. Like all the SL finding their goals and conclusions in their general life, Aigis is helped by the entirety of SEES.
LIKE. I'm trying to stick to main-game's storyline, but the answer. god. The Answer. Aigis is so painfully human, and the fact her body doesn't match is painful. Her failures isn't what makes her human, her refusal to lose purpose and keep fighting does.
She fights against death, and she fights the body that refuses her humanity.
If Persona 3 was a game about death, they wouldn't have filled it with so much determination to live.
ok i realize i spent too much time on this so sayonara. maybe another time.
EXCUSE ME I RECENTLY DISCOVERED VOCALOIDS AND IMMEDIATELY FELL IN LOVE WITH OLIVER /p
thank you for blessing us with ur Oliver art <3 he needs more love fr. and more happy songs.
i just got here so im not sure if you've mentioned it before, but do you have a fav Oliver song? :3
I'm glad you like my art of him! I've been drawing him for 9-ish years now, but it's always nice to hear other fans of his also like my art! I don't actually talk to a lot of Oliver fans haha.
I always really really admired Dappleback/Lawlietlk's designing skill, and I had a whole presentation how much I appreciated his character design and how it lead back into why I think as a vocaloid he has one of the best designs.
Like don't get me wrong, Vocaloid (and other synths) have really good designs, just sometimes they aren't necessarily as good as Vocaloid designs y'know?
Like hear me out, I feel like the biggest appeal of vocaloid mascots is this: They can be whatever you want. Now on one hand you can argue that 'no mascot' is even Moreso freedom and should have worked better than mascot, but what's missing is the intrigue. There is a breeding ground of creativity hidden beneath restriction.
Like, often enough what people need most in order to create something is just a guideline, and for me that's what Oliver offers. Like, sometimes, too much canon is a bad thing, and people need to remember that.
The #1 selling point of Oliver's design is the intrigue his design offers. There's so much of it that once changed loses that 'space of expression.' And yet, no matter how much you are able to change, he also is able to maintain that 'constant' that lets you know that yes, that is still him, even if you change it. I don't have it anymore but it's been years, but I had a whole chart explaining it.
Over the years Oliver has gotten a lot of motifs and concepts assigned to him, that only derive from smaller aspects of his designs, for example: His bandages.
While you may argue it's not entirely unique, that is exactly the beauty of it. It's because of that so many different concepts stem from it.
One of the biggest themes correlated with Oliver is a monster/horror theme and you have the bandages to thank for it. The amount of concepts I've seen born from the sheer mystery of his bandages were so vast it's crazy. Whether it's because he's a cryptid/monster/cursed or otherwise, people are forced to make an effort to use that "why?"
And on the flip side, there is other mysteries people find from his bandages that aren't horror, they're instead going for something else: A poor waif, a vigilante, a witch, and etc. Through the simple [why], Oliver becomes limitless.
And while we're still discussing his bandages, there is elsewhere you can find beauty in his design. I know a lot of his fans are or were children when they became fans of him, and I know for a fact that some of them related to his design. It's not like he had much to go against them in thinking that-- and it's not just because of his song. For me as a child I projected onto him as a (character) as someone I could relate to. That's uh, probably why a lot of people tend to use him for horror or darker stuff. I know that some people are... unsavory, but that's why I don't really like when people hate on horror content made from him. I know a lot of people are weird about him, but it's a form of self-expression all the same.
Even aside from his bandages, his design still manages to offer intrigue. While Miku allows herself to be a blank canvas (being a mascot with very little ties, a digital idol who represents exactly that) Oliver is more like... a puzzle? Except there is no wrong answer and every time you put it together, it's always different.
There was a lot of misconceptions around his design, but Oliver was based off choirboy outfits-- not that everyone knew that. A lot of people interpreted it as a sailor outfit with nautical themes. That's why you can often see Oliver with sea-themed artworks or songs and/or if it's still around, sea-side waif depictions of him. But on the other side, there were quite a few interpretations of Oliver as a time-traveler- a noble- or hell: a literal bird boy.
Had he been given a more generic design, a more modern one, a more idol-esque version of himself, most of these interpretations of him would not exist. There would be less incentive for people to create that answer without the "why."
I don't really have a proper ranking on a more 'objective' ranking of designs as vocaloid specific mascot designs, but I feel like it's somewhat similar to... actual popularity?
Like... If i had to separate them, there's three categories in a venn diagram: Just straight up Good design (though I'd argue a lot of the other two would still fit in here), Fill-in the blank design, and blank canvas design.
I would say the OG Miku fits in all 3 categories but has been erring into just good design or her own category: too engrained into pop culture to fail.
Fukase is a good example of a Fill-in design, because he also has the classic "why" to his design. (Why is his coat like that? why does he have scars? is he human? is he a robot? Is he circus themed? Who knows?) You can see a lot of exploration of his character through that.
Vflower I feel like is primarily in the blank canvas design, because she more-so encompasses a certain fashion style and is able to attract the blank canvas of gender expression as well.
At the moment, to be honest, I can't really think of someone who only fit's in the straight up good character design but doesn't offer any mystery or fluidity, but that might just be my personality.
To be entirely clear, this venn diagram is probably closer to just a single circle instead of 3, but I'm mostly talking about which part of their design they align most with. (and the most common consensus of how to interpret them.
To be honest this is probably why I feel a bit like a Fake Oliver fan, bc I care more about his design more than his voicebank itself. (Sweats as I look at the vocaloid editor on my computer)
Man. Favorite Oliver song is tough.
Favorite Usage
I'll only be mentioning the publicly released songs using him, since it's a bit unfair if I recommend you something you either have no access to or I'm unable to find again.
To be honest I'm not a huge fan of some of Oliver's most known producers, mostly because I know they're not great people and refuse to support them. It's none of my business if you still listen to them, but I'd rather not. But, It's nice going down my old masterlist of Oliver originals.
I really like Rawbeans-P, if you ever heard her usage of Oliver, it's crazy stunning. Probably some of the best usage of him you'll ever hear.
Cat in a raincloud I know is relatively popular among my friends that I've pushed Robyn's music onto.
I feel like high up there is also Corasundae, who is honestly has a pretty refreshing (?) song-making style. I'm really not a music guy- meaning I never learnt a lot of terms properly and can't describe a lot of things to you, but I really like the general sound that corasundae uses in her works.
I think T.V.V.S is a pretty iconic song, but I'm emotionally attached to Other Side.
One of the songs I see people rarely talking about is Requiescat in Pace- I get it's probably because it's an older song, but I've always liked how it sounded and was a staple for me as a kid (and still fairly fresh into Vocaloid.) I don't think PARADIGM really released much else, but this song is sooo cool, I think about it a lot!
I'm not sure if you don't like horror, or just disappointed that it's a majority of his songs, but I don't think it's leaning too much into horror? It's really good though!
Another one of my favorite Vocaloid producers (the one I bought a keychain from as well!) is Veran Kuriensu! I found them originally from their original Lay, and it's possibly still one of my favorite Vocaloid Oliver Originals still to this day. While it's my favorite, I do know that they've improved drastically and their other works with Oliver is crazy good, but Lay has a special spot to me and makes me feel especially Nostalgic.
I've always liked how the lyrics sounded as well. I think otherwise my second favorite song from them is 星をあつめに. It's really good I Promise. Please please do give their stuff a chance!!
I feel like another producer I'd recommend for similar reasons to Rawbeans-P is Baggagelizard. He's always forever been kind of a legend to me! He's a super cool guy, and he has really good usage of Oliver's voicebank as well. One of my favorite songs he's done is Song for the forgotten, which was even my Oliver Collab piece back in like... 2016? That's honestly a bit crazy to me seeing how long it's been.
Baggagelizard tends to have such a special sound to the music he makes, I think it's kind of... a morose wistfulness? If you're into this one, I genuinely hope you check out his other works as well!
Actually I'm adding this one, because I really like the atmosphere of it! It's called Tavern and it's a really fun song using Big Al, Oliver, and Kaito and I think it's such a fun song! Apparently other Oliver fans I've recommended it said it wasn't their cup of tea though (′д｀σ)σ.
OH and how could I forget: Childhood Bye-Bye is honestly borderline a classic for me! I think it's a really iconic song, but it always surprises me that it's not as popular as I think it is. The producers other works are also really good!
Oooh, another Producer I can recommend is Compasscat! They use Uni, SeeU, and sometimes Oliver (maybe other vocaloids but I'm actually writing this in class (lol). You should try checking them out! I think I enjoyed it but I've been told the things I like are... different from how other people like things.
Actually, on the thought of not-so dark songs using Oliver, I hardly see any Oliver fans (or Yohioloid) fans talking about Yellow Card. I hadn't listened to it for years, but I still think it's pretty fun to this day, you could try checking it out if you feel like it. While we're at it, I'll add a bunch of special mentions for songs I knew were fairly liked enough when I was deeper into vocaloid but never see people talk about anymore as well. To be honest, I'd have a lot more to add to this list, but a lot of Oliver Originals I really liked are deleted or missing.... I understand it's at the producer's own discretion, but it's a little sad.
Unfortunately, A lot of the Bilibili/Niconico songs that I really liked were deleted or really really hard to access/find, but I'll reblog if I find them again.
The thing about Ryomina (mlm or mlf) is that I hesitate to say I "ship" it because I don't really consider them solely in the 'romantic' side of things.
Like, to me their whole deal is more on the conceptual scale of things. They exist on many planes, they can be romantic, they can be platonic, they can be the same person, but there is still emotions there regardless of what you do.
Death delivers all, death is all encompassing, death lived inside of them until one day, it leaves. Something that was in them for 10 years leaves him. It should've felt empty, like something wrong. And yet that thing, that concept, that person was no longer stagnant. It saw the world from you, and it grows. It becomes a person, it becomes human. (You also, learn to become human)
It starts off someone who knew only that single point of view, to someone who was able to change. Change themself- and change you- no longer restricted by that tie to you. And yet, the bond you have was strong enough that he was still led back to you.
I think the 'love' that would hypothetically exist between the two of them would be the 'love' someone could have for a concept. An Abstraction and mixed with simple human affection. The love of the life that lived next to the protag. The protag to me would love Ryoji, the way one would love life.
Funny how that is: Loving death like life.
V ADDING A DISCUSSION ON HAMUGIS AND RYOMINA SECTION HERE V
I consider Hamugis more generally romantic than Ryomina but thats also because they also have less fuckassery. But i still also do consider them in that nebulous relationship status area.
Don't get me wrong. I love love love hamugis. Actually let me add a sidetwt doodle here while I can.
Okay heres the thing about my preferences in Persona 3 ships. I'm actually okay with most of them tbh. Like generally I usually don't get other people's interpretations of certain ships, but i still on some level kind of like. Get it.
The only one is like. Junpei and anyone who isn't Chidori; or at the very least with anyone who redacts chidori entirely. I like jundori okay. I like Junpei. Junpei's #1 defender.
But I do on a level instinctively prefer the mlm ver of ryomina over mlf, and the flf ver of hamugis over mlm. (I do actually overall prefer aigis x protag over ryomina in general in the normal terms of 'ship' but we already talked about that)
Now I'm well aware technically I could make the protaganist's character whatever but we've come far enough that a lot of "insert" protagonists already have a general kind of personality okay. I do sometimes err away from canon portrayals, yeah but hey.
Anyways I feel like... Hamuko and Aigis form a stronger bond together. It's not just the difficulty of the love itself that changes things. It's the approach. Hamuko is generally portrayed as more headstrong and more outwardly optimistic, which, yeah.
I feel like... While Aigis benefits from someone reaching out to her, inversely, Ryoji benefits from reaching out to someone?
And then when Aigis is forced to reach out...
Anyways, what I'm trying to say is I feel like the bond overall has more meaning. Like I did say Aigis' relationship with the protagonist is also still in that conceptual air, I'm kind of rehashing what I said before. Aigis is coming to terms with her own humanity .
I lost the plot of this psot.