I Agree With Everything You Have Said.

I agree with everything you have said.

I'll go even further in depth because I want to and this is an excuse to info dump

Cass got whatever that was in the Harley Quinn movie which I choose to just ignore. And while Helena wasn't the worst in that movie it is also a misrepresentation of her character and the complicated way she became a Bird of Prey in the comics. But back to Cass. Her character is not Cass, and honestly there are better DC Gotham Gals that could have been picked for the role. She hasn't appeared in any games as far as I am aware, but did feature in Young Justice TV show. Which was cool. But it was the Young Justice seasons that were limited to HBO and not on regular television or highly rated within the Young Justice TV show fandom.

Helena has gotten a couple of nice things back in the early to mid 2000s [thank you DCAU] but after that she has become the niche for many people despite the roles she played in Gotham and the building of the modern Batfamily (especially when it comes to fanon, and how they borrow characterization from Helena and add it to Jason.) So while she had some good time in the spotlight as her own character for awhile, those days are kinda behind us at the moment.

Than let's talk about Tim. See I have complicated opinions about how DC handles Tim. However I would say that his character has been mistreated and mishandled (just like every other DC character has at some point). But let's look at what Tim has going for him outside the comics as far as TV, and Movie. The DCAU has a disaster of a Tim Drake. Honestly, the DCAU Tim was Jason who got a recolor and was sold as something it wasn't. Just it's not Tim. Then we have those early 2010s movies that are really forgettable. He was Red Robin in them which you know cool, but he wasn't a main player in those movies. I remember one of them focusing more on Batman and Oliver Queen more than anything else. So I would place him in the same spot of having an on screen heyday. His game appearances. Uhh just look up a picture of Arkham Knight game characters and we get a Robin named Tim. But it's not Tim.

So we have three characters that have been in TV shows and movies, but have been misrepresented within that media. One character in a popular Batman game that is misrepresented, one character who hasn't been in any animated project since the 2000s, and one character that has been misrepresented in both a live action and was a minor character in a direct to streaming season of a TV show.

Now let's move onto Red Hood aka Jason Todd. He has shown up in a lesser amount of media, but he was the star of all the media he has been a larger character in. He has his own animated movie that to this day people praise and use within edits and fan content. He has had a whole Arkham game with him as a major player. The game that a large majority of the Arkham players think is the best, and he has multiple Fanshows that Fans have made by themselves on YouTube.

Damian has the most recent and the largest animated presence of all the robins, and any other partner that Batman has worked with. He got multiple movies with him referenced within the title. He has a lot of movies. And although he has been misrepresented, he has a large presence in the animated side of the Batfamily fandom and DC as a whole.

No Man's Land

As I stated previously. Cassandra Cain, Helena Bertinelli, and Timothy Drake have large to very important roles in the whole story of No Man's Land. I will talk about Helena and Cass in this post, and I include screenshots of comic panels. [I also have Image ID information if you can't view photos.]

Helena

In the first half of No Man's Land Helena operated as the second Batgirl. [Although first going by The Bat]. Bruce Wayne was not in Gotham and was basically leaving it to burn, and Helena wouldn't stand for letting Gotham fall anymore. She first tried to help as Huntress, but there was no Gotham-wide symbol to Huntress, although there was with the Bat. She makes her own costume, goes out, and starts fighting back. Laying claim to the territory and tagging building under her protection. A tactic that Bruce would start using when he realized that Gotham had changed in his absence, and he would need to adapt. She would continue to operate despite pushback from Batman, and distance from Oracle. [Oracle believed that Batman had asked Helena or was allowing Helena to operate as Batgirl]. She would up quitting the role when Two-Face and Penguin teamed up to cause havoc among the Blue Boys (the remaining Gotham police) and Batman. She was tasked with protecting the clock tower from Black Mask and Batman ordered her to remain out of sight. It was not within her ability to do so, and she had to jump in the middle of the fight to stop it. Multiple people ended up dead from the fight [Helena did not kill them]. Batman says three strikes you out. Helena operates as Huntress after this.

[Image ID (above): Helena Bertinelli can be seen in a Bat themed costume. There are no eye openings, and the mouth area has been sticked to have the lower face cover by the same or similar material. On her chest is a bat logo that is outlined in yellow, but the inside is the same colour as the rest of the costume. She is conversing with a pair of blonde and brunette boys that she saved from having their coats stollen.

Helena: Doesn't this symbol mean anything to you?

Blonde: Well yeah--but you're a girl. We thought you were trying to trick us, make us believe you were the Batman, to, like, get our coats.

Brunette: Yeah. Everybody around here is out for themselves.

Helena: (pointing to a yellow spray paint tag the same or almost the same to the one on her chest that is painted on the brick wall) This is the bat. In this town it means criminal beware.

Brunette: So then, like, you work with Batman?

Helena: How do you know I'm not Batman?

Brunette: You're a girl!

Helena: If you were a big tough guy and you got beat up by a girl, would you admit it? Or would you say it was a huge giant . . . .seven feet tall with fangs and claws that took you down?

Blonde: Point.

Helena: Tell your friends--as long as there are people in Gotham, there'll be a bat.

Blonde: All this time she was a girl. Do you believe that?

Brunette: I dunno and I don't care. All I know is, is she saved our butte. The Bat rules. ]

[Image IDs: Both images are from the same conversation so the transcript will be kept together. Do note that part of the conversation has been cute. Helena in her Batgirl suit and Batman in a suit that has the logo in a yellow circle are in an underground bucker/hideout. They have just come back from a night of stopping gang violence.

Batman: Rest.

Helena (as she is messing with her cowl): It's not fatigue. It's frustration----I was too slow.

Batman: Than be faster.

Helena: Great advice from the man who perfected the vanishing act. Where have you been?

Batman: Taking the trash out.

Helena: where do they [the criminals] go? The ones we take down, I mean what happens to them?

Batman: You don't want to know.

----

Batman: Don't let that happen. Keep the tower safe.

Helena: I could use a little help.

Batman: I am needed elsewhere. You're on this alone. Protect the tower, and try not to be seen.

Helena: I can do one or the other, not both.

Batman: Then your not worthy of the mantle. Of course, you could prove me wrong--]

[Image ID: The words . . .get worse can be seen on the top left corner. This was the finishing words of Helena's monologs. At the top of the page in the middle the words Mosiac: part two announce that this panel is from the Mosiac arc of No Man's Land. Helena is mid way through finishing her jump into battle at the entrance to the clock tower. She has thrown a canister of gas with a black bat logo on it.

Helena: You can stay down or you can fall down. . .but I can guarantee you won't be getting back up again. ]

[Image ID: Bruce Wayne dressed in his full Batman suit, Richard Grayson is dressed in his full Nightwing suit, and Helena Bertinelli is in almost complete Batgirl costume except for her cowl.

Batman: Six people are dead. My fault as much as yours. You want to keep that cowl? I have to be able to trust you. I have to know that you'll follow orders.

Helena: I tried--

Batman: trying isn't enough.

Batman: You were to stop Black Mask out of sight of the clocktower (Batman puts pointer finger up on an otherwise closed fist), you failed. I told you not to follow men when I took Black Mask into custody. You disobeyed (Batman indicates second offence with a middle finger joining the pointer), I told you to protect our territory, our people . . .(Batman indicates third offence with a ring finger joining the pointer and middle) but Two-Face now commands that land. And six more bodies are in the ground.

Helena: And you blame me?

Batman: No. I hold you responsible. As I hold myself. ]

[Image ID: Batman is pictured standing in the middle of a silhouette of Nightwing, and the maskless Helena. This is directly continuing from the last page.

Helena: You think I don't know what happened? You think I can just forget that they're dead?! You think I can sleep at night?! You think that I can forgive myself?! You left me alone yo face 200 of Two-Face's goons! What was I supposed to do?]

[Image ID: The conversation moves forward and the tail-end of the argument continues.

Helena: --But I don't take orders and certainly not from you!

Batman: That's the problem.

Helena: Not mine. Not anymore.

Helena: (speaking to Nightwing who has a hand on her left shoulder.) Don't touch me.

Helena: I won't be what you want, Batman. Don't ask me. I can't.

Batman: Then stay out of it. You'll only get in the way.

Helena: I can't do that either.]

Cassandra

For the first half of No Man's Land (Winter and Spring) she did assignments for Oracle (information and supply hunts). During the Mark of Cain arc where David Cain was hired by Two-Face to kill Jim Gorden and Barbara Gorden, Cass jumps in between them because she knows that David would not kill her. She impresses Batman during this arc and is given a gift. The Batgirl costume that Helena had been using, but had recently given up. Unlike Helena, Cass had the blessing of Babs to become the next one to use the mantle.

[Image ID: Cassandra and David Cain are outside a room where both Barbara Gordon and Jim Gordon were just questioning Cass about how she knew David Cain. She is standing in front of the door, and the shots that David let out of his weapon miss Cassandra. She then proceeds to stare him down and then leap at him and give him an uppercut. David Cain loses a tooth and starts bleeding. Cassandra then stares at her right hand which is covered in David Cain's blood. ]

[Image ID: Barbara, Cassandra, and Batman are all in a room together, one that holds Barbara's stuff. Barbara is holding an older Black and White photo that depicts herself when she still operated as Batgirl. She turns the photo around to show Cassandra.

Barbara: I can't thank you enough.

Cassandra points to the photo. While Batman remains a darkened shadow in the background.

Barbara: Yes, that's me. It was a long time ago. Take it. I want you to have it.

Batman: Oracle. Call them. (Referencing the allies of the Bat)]

[Image ID: Batman is pictured holding a box in front of Cassandra. To the side Barbara Gordon (Oracle), Timothy Drake (Robin), Richard Grayson (Nightwing), and Jean-Paul Valley (Azrael) watch the scene play out in front of them.

Batman: Remember that.

Oracle: Honor it.

Cassandra proceeds to open the wrapped box revealing a black suit with a yellow outline symbol of a bat. Helena's old design.

Batman: You can change in the Bedroom. ]

This is only the first half of No Man's Land. Get rid of Helena and you don't have the second Batgirl, you don't have Helena knowing how to take back Gotham, you don't have someone who despite her thoughts on Batman knew that it was the symbol that Gotham needed at the time to start to come back together.

Get rid of Cassandra and now there is no third Batgirl. She isn't there to stop the fight between David Cain and Batman peacefully. She isn't there to save Babs and Jim.

By replacing them with Damian and Jason you get two characters that are important to the themes that this story has, and the message it is trying to send.

This is only the beginning and I could have rambled for longer, but Tumblr has an image limit and I am not breaking this up into parts.

I'll tell you though anyone else who may be reading this and hasn't done so check out No Man's Land. It's a good story and you won't regret it.

DCs been giving us a lot of monkey paw situations lately so I think we should make a game of it with random scenarios, I’ll go first

We get an animated series or movie based on no man’s land

BUT

they replace Helena, Cass and Tim with Jason and Damian

i genuinely dont care if the creation of all media comes to a screeching halt btw i will very gladly live with no new movies no new tv shows no new anything for years if that's what it takes for the people who create them to be treated like human beings. i hope every other facet of the entertainment industry goes on strike too and i hope all the ones that havent unionised yet will. i want media creation to become completely impossible and i want the people who could make it possible again to hold out until they get every single thing they want. btw

helena bertinelli for @laurie-juspeczyk !! lowkey started getting hooked while drawing her djdhjgd

New ask game

Edit Requests: Helena Bertinelli as the Huntress for anon.