Something That I Think Gets Overlooked About Arya As A Result Of Fandom Flanderization Is That She Didnt

Something that I think gets overlooked about Arya as a result of fandom flanderization is that she didn’t set out with the desire to become an assassin. She loves swordplay, yes, and she has her list. But when she escaped king’s landing, she just wanted to get to family. She wanted to get to safety. She wanted to get to Jon. When she left for Essos, her intention had been to go to the wall, to find Jon. She only went to Braavos because she didn’t know what else to do. Arya has a strong sense of justice, yes. But her primary motivation hasn’t been revenge. She’s not the only character who, imo, is on a specific path because they don’t know what else to do. But that’ll have to wait for another post

I really kind of hate shipping culture honestly like in most given fandoms you’ll have people who aren’t even really fans of the media itself, they’re fans of a ship. I cannot understand it. Technically I have seen this with asoiaf but that’s not even the example I’m thinking of. It’s frustrating to be a big fan of a character that is in one of these ships because it can become so hard to find any content of the character that isn’t ship content. There’s nothing wrong with being super into ships like this and I’m not trying to throw shade at shippers it’s just super frustrating and confusing to me personally

Didn’t even think of this angle. The whole idea that her ending up with Jon would be the thing that makes people accept that she’s important. You’re so right. I’m not sure the key five thing was meant to mock Jon specifically but more so to mock Arya and Dany fans (and honestly most Jon fans too because most Jon fans also seem to be Arya and/or Dany fans but lbr they do not go after Tyrion or Bran fans really, at least not that I’ve seen).

It is true that some people will say that Sansa isn’t an important character. Ive even been guilty of saying that she serves as a “camera” but I’ve since walked back on that and no longer believe it to be true. But their approach to countering that argument is all wrong. There doesn’t need to be a hidden Jonsa meta for Sansa to be an important character. She currently has more POV chapters than Bran! Currently, her relevance to the magical “song of ice and fire” plot line with the Others is unclear. But LF is a major player in the game and I also think her marriage to Tyrion will prove to be important.

They seem to need her to be “special” in the way the key 5 are in order for her to be interesting and important but that’s not true. She’s interesting because, in comparison to the 5, she’s very normal. Her magical companion was taken from her. A part of her was killed. She does not have any unique skills or traits that are different from the standard highborn lady (she knows plenty about the houses and their history and clearly has talents; they’re just what would be expected of her). That’s why she’s an interesting addition to the cast. Her beauty doesn’t count here as many female characters are considered to be exceptionally beautiful. As far as I can recall, every female POV character aside from Brienne and Arya has been called beautiful—and even then, Arya is called pretty on more than one occasion and is said to look like Lyanna, who is considered to be exceptionally beautiful. Sansa is fairly normal amongst westerosi highborn ladies aside from her tragic circumstances. She exists as a bit of a paradox: to the average citizen of Westeros, she seems like a girl who has it all (when viewed in a vacuum separate from the tragic series of events): she’s beautiful, of high birth, well-liked, well-read, and seems to be good at everything she does. But to the reader, when compared to the other major POV characters, she’s the black sheep. This is one of the things that endears her to me. I’m very excited to see what GRRM has planned for her because more than any other character (aside from those who were excluded from the show altogether) her arc is a big question mark. I wish there wasn’t such a divide between Sansa fans and Dany fans because I’d love to talk about it more.

Also something that drives me fucking wild is seeing people refer to Dany and Arya’s roles as patriarchal or wish-fulfillment for men. Just yesterday I saw the phrase “patriarchal power fantasy” used. I need everyone to sit down and think about what “patriarchy” means.

For the purpose of this post, and any other post I make, please know that when I say “masculine” I am referring to stereotypes associated with the male sex and when I say “feminine” I am referring to stereotypes associated with the female sex. Masculine =/= male and feminine =/= female.

Patriarchy does not refer to masculinity. It does not mean that masculine people are in power (I wouldn’t go as far as to call Dany or Arya masculine, but bear with me). Patriarchy refers to systems where MEN are the sex caste in power. Men. Not masculine people. Under a patriarchal system, women are oppressed regardless of whether or not they conform to femininity, although the less a woman conforms, the more she is punished for it. Dany and Arya’s arcs are inherently ANTI patriarchal on the simple basis that they are female and they defy what is expected of women in Westeros. They can never represent male power fantasies because they are not men. Referring to their arcs as male power fantasies is telling on yourself. You are revealing that your view of women and what we want and fantasize about is narrow. Why would you assume that only men would desire to travel across the sea and learn the ways of a secret society of assassins? Why would you assume that only men would want to wield the power of dragons and amass loyal supporters?

You are part of the problem by assuming that the desire for power is a male trait. Yes, we stereotypically associate that with men. That stereotype, and what we consider masculine and feminine as a whole, almost exclusively exist to uphold the patriarchy. Women are expected to be peaceful pacifists, complacent, quiet, because that keeps us under the boot of the male caste. Consider why so many “strong” female characters are less feminine. Is it because people feel the need to make them more like men in order to be “strong?” I say no. At least, not most of the time. If this is what you think, you’ve got the order mixed up. Skirts, dresses, and heels are impractical for fighting and limit movement a lot. Thus, it wouldn’t make sense for a competent female fighter to be wearing them. These things have been forced upon women BECAUSE they are impractical. A woman who keeps her hair short and wears no makeup and wears pants and no heels is not trying to emulate men. She is shedding femininity because femininity is impractical and time consuming. Consider WHY so many traits associated with power, leadership, and combat are considered masculine. It’s the enforcement of the patriarchy. Female characters who chase down these things and embody these qualities and do not conform to femininity are not basically men. They are women who are rejecting the system. This is antithetical to the patriarchy and to male power fantasies.

In summary: a female character who has an arc typically associated with male characters can never be a male power fantasy BECAUSE she is female.

Obligatory note that women who do conform are not lesser and their stories are not less important—they just do not challenge the patriarchy.

Literally right after posting this I get to the next Arya chapter in AFfC and see this:

“Is that why you have come to us?” the kindly man went on. “To learn our arts, so you may kill these men you hate?”

Arya did not know how to answer that. “Maybe.”

—Arya II, AFfC

Something that I think gets overlooked about Arya as a result of fandom flanderization is that she didn’t set out with the desire to become an assassin. She loves swordplay, yes, and she has her list. But when she escaped king’s landing, she just wanted to get to family. She wanted to get to safety. She wanted to get to Jon. When she left for Essos, her intention had been to go to the wall, to find Jon. She only went to Braavos because she didn’t know what else to do. Arya has a strong sense of justice, yes. But her primary motivation hasn’t been revenge. She’s not the only character who, imo, is on a specific path because they don’t know what else to do. But that’ll have to wait for another post

Yeah that’s what I’ve been saying!! Both are romantics who love stories and songs, both were forced to marry as a young age for political reasons, both have this dark “mentor” figure who is actually a spy who makes unwanted advances on them because each girl physically reminds the man of a lost love (Cat for Sansa and Lynesse for Dany). Both have distinctive hair that speaks to their bloodline that gets altered in some way—dyed for Sansa, burned away for Dany. I anticipate that Dany will face disillusionment in the same way Sansa has, realizing that the people of Westeros may not want her to rule any more than they would’ve wanted Viserys. There’s so much to analyze here that I’m always surprised more people don’t discuss any of it. I read a lot of Dany metas and see tons drawing parallels with Jon and Arya and antiparallels with Cersei, but the Dany-Sansa is comparison seldom shows up!!

I’d never considered the way they reframe and romanticize traumatic experiences, great observation!

@cleverelaena88 hi I was the anon in the post this is from. I wanted to start a new thread instead of clogging the notes of someone else’s post. I wrote up an essay explaining it under the cut if you’re interested but it boils down to this:

1. I started thinking for myself about her place in the narrative.

2. I let go of petty feelings coming from my wounded inner child.

3. I realized I could continue to think for myself and that liking this characters doesn’t mean I’m aligning myself with objectionable things other fans of the character have said.

The way I feel about Sansa changed for a lot of reasons. I walked back on my stance that she isn’t important because I realized I wasn’t really thinking for myself and was just going along with the things often said by other fans of my favorite characters. If I remember correctly, she has as many POV chapters as Bran. The Vale plot is important to the story and it’s clearly not just relevant to Littlefinger or else… why would Sansa be involved? She didn’t need to be a POV character for the story to work but she is because she’s important. If Sansa was just supposed to be a “camera” to show the viewer what’s happening in KL and later the Vale, why did start off as a POV character in places where other POV characters were as well? She’s the only POV character in the Vale in AFfC, but if that was her only importance, why was she a POV character prior to going to the Vale?

Currently, she does feel pretty “cut off” from the main plot threads—the IT, the Others, and the dragons. At least where I’m at, halfway through AFfC. And I think that’s what makes some people think she isn’t important. But I kind of thing that’s evidence that she IS. She’s away from all of these major plot elements and is not in close proximity to other POV characters who are involved in these three elements, unlike characters like Arya, who are technically disconnected from those three elements, but are in close proximity to other POV characters (i.e., Arya encounters Sam in Braavos). Given that, why on earth would George continue to feature her POV if her story specifically was not important?

As for why she’s become one of my favorites, that’s a bit different. This is a bit personal, so forgive me for it, but I think it’s interesting insight. I had to get past this wounded inner child aspect of myself, for one. I was an ugly duckling. I grew up being mocked for being a chubby, socially awkward kid with a snaggle tooth and a lisp. I internalized the idea very early that in order to be loved and socially accepted, I must be beautiful. I have auburn hair and amber eyes. I also received this message that to be beautiful, I should be blonde and more importantly have blue/green eyes. Seeing how just about every example of beautiful women in media were blonde with light eyes, and how the vast majority of female protagonists were beautiful, I developed quite the complex about this. It started sending a message to me that these stories were not for me. The romance, the fantasy, everything these characters got was not and never would be for me because I wasn’t beautiful like them. I resented any female protagonist for which their beauty was a huge focal point because of a deep envy. I wished more than anything to be beautiful. Every birthday, every star, every dandelion. What I really wanted was love and social acceptance, but I was too young to understand that.

Then something weird happened as I grew up. I became beautiful. I don’t want to sound vain or self-congratulatory, but it’s relevant here. The vast majority of people now consider me to be extremely good-looking. This started around age 16. I got what I wished for. People started treating me differently. I got what I wished for. And it sucked. I’ll get back to that. But I did and still do feel like that little ugly duckling. I’m slowly healing, but it’s hard. I still felt this deep resentment and envy. It is starting to go away but comes up now and again. And as petty as it sounds, yes, part of me resented this character for being beautiful. Of course, I think every single female POV character is called pretty or beautiful aside from Brienne. Daenerys and Cersei are also considered to be extremely beautiful, but it’s not as relevant to Dany because the whole dragon thing takes more precedence and Cersei’s envy and vindictiveness are more prominent me (plus she’s an overt antagonist, and I don’t mind so much when the character is one of the bad guys, for some reason). But for Sansa, her beauty and grace seem to be major focal points in how other characters see her.

I said before that becoming beautiful sucked. I resented everyone around me for treating me differently because I was beautiful. And I realized that it does NOT offer me the guaranteed acceptance and love and safety that I believed it would as a child. Men will behave in different evil ways to both ugly and beautiful women. Being beautiful started to feel like this curse. It became a performance that I have to maintain because deep down I fear that beauty is all I have and/or that it’s the only reason anyone really values me. I developed an eating disorder about it. I got exactly what I wished for but not what I wanted.

Here’s how that’s relevant. I started drawing parallels and antiparallels between Sansa and Dany. I think it’s very interesting to compare the two but I seldom see that discussed unless it’s to pit them against one another. As I started to make these parallels I realized that many of the reasons I connect with Dany also apply to Sansa and started doing some self-analysis about why I didn’t connect with Sansa in the same way. I started to sort out the whole wounded inner child thing and realized it had been preventing me from acknowledging and appreciating any depth in Sansa’s character and really feeling for her. I realized that she too wished for something so very badly when she was a naive kid. Something she thought she wanted desperately. And she got it, and it was horrible. I found that I can now really emotionally connect with this character. Perhaps she too fears that her beauty and grace are the only reasons people like her. And I can definitely relate to the feeling of being sexualized and objectified by adults and peers alike. I know how it feels to have to smile and nod and lie to appease poisonous men. I really can connect with her emotionally in ways I couldn’t before because of my own personal hangups.

Finally, I just stopped caring about what other fans think. I have seen Sansa fans saying things I find objectionable, like proclaiming that Daenerys and Arya’s arcs are patriarchal or excusing the way Sansa treated Arya (although I don’t think their relationship is as cut and dry as “they simply don’t love eachother”). Plus there’s just a lot of infighting between Sansa fans and Dany and Arya fans and it made me keep my distance. I also am not a Jonsa fan and it seems many Sansa fans are in fact Jonsa fans. I used to hate the ship but was just being immature honestly. I’m neutral now and I think it’s interesting to read Jonsa metas because they present an entirely different way to interpret the story. It is fun for me to see what other people take away from the text. I was also holding myself back because I’ve seen Jonsas misconstrue the text and omit parts of passages and important context in ways that seem intentionally misleading, which really bothers me. But I realized I’m biased. We all have our own confirmation biases when reading the series and I’m sure other fans do the exact same thing. I was just noticing it more with Jonsa because it’s not a theory I subscribe to. But enjoying Sansa’s character does not mean I need to align myself with every single other Sansa fan, which seems obvious when said so plainly, but we often subconsciously develop this sense of group microidentities that we fear betraying.

This is all very specific to me as an individual of course but I had fun with all the introspection and think it’s an interesting case study about why a person may resent a specific character and why they might change their minds. Thanks for reading!

I’m abouuuut 15%? Through A Feast for Crows and I truly cannot comprehend how anyone thinks of Arya as this cold-blooded killer who is “too far gone.” I guess I still have most of this book and ADwD to read and she’s a POV character in both, and I’m trying not to let bias influence my interpretation, but man, this is a sweet and compassionate girl. She’s scared and trying her very best to be brave. She’s gone to a distant land simply because she doesn’t know what else to do. And she arrives at her destination and the first thing she does when she gets to the house of black and white is to notice a stranger seems thirsty and bring him a cup of water. Selfless kindness. He didn’t ask. They didn’t even exchange words. She just noticed he seemed thirsty so she brought him water. Arya hates showing vulnerability and deliberately does not want to appear scared to others, but she has a very tender heart and instinctively looks out for loved ones and strangers alike.