Ooooo All Very Interesting Points! I Love The Summary And The Analysis (100% Agree On Lloyds Fatal Flaws)

Ooooo all very interesting points! I love the summary and the analysis (100% agree on Lloyd’s fatal flaws) of agency and being doomed by your own hand vs. being doomed by the narrative. I personally think both are very tragic in their own regard, and there’s absolutely a very valid argument to make about which could be considered more tragic, but I’m playing devil’s advocate (or I suppose Oni’s advocate) for Lloyd, so goes—

You want agency? Sure! :D Let me find some examples of some of the other situations where Lloyd DOES make active choices that lead to his own suffering.

Season One, Rise of the Snakes— Lloyd intentionally opens the Serpentine Tombs, which directly snowballs into: his betrayal at the hands of Pythor, multiple kidnappings, nearly getting killed in a volcano in a cage sinking into lava, and the release of the Great Devourer (a massive f-u world-consuming snake) that directly causes Harumi to hate Lloyd’s guts for getting her parents killed in the serpent attack & gives Garmadon access to the Golden Weapons which further brings the prophecy closer to fruition.

Season Two, Legacy of the Green Ninja — Lloyd intentionally decides to use Tomorrow’s Tea to save his family (who have been turned to kids via magic) from a resurrected ninja-hunting dinosaur monster, knowing he’ll get hit by the blast and getting aged up (at least physically, not necessarily mentally) and losing his childhood. Everyone tried to dissuade him from this. He did it anyway. The prophecy is closer than ever because he’s “of age”.

Season Four, Tournament of Elements — He decides to open the portal to the cursed realm (I’ll admit, he was a bit forced by the situation, but he still had the activeness of doing it himself) and intentionally banished Garmadon (leading to his later death) in exchange for some ancient warriors to save the day (this results in the escape of the ghost who later possesses and traumatizes Lloyd)

Season Six, Skybound— Lloyd intentionally sacrifices himself to an evil djinn’s blade of souls because he thinks Jay can defeat him with a wish. This gets him sealed away in the sword like a battery (and in the original season concept of the sword, would be a confirmed death and his empty corpse would fall to the ground).

Season Eight, Sons of Garmadon— Lloyd choses to trust Harumi and is very active in his self-assigned role of protecting her, only to be backstabbed (almost literally) and nearly killed in a cave, then nearly killed by his resurrected evil father, which— oh yeah! Lloyd INTENTIONALLY sneaks out to confront/fight Garmadon by himself despite everyone telling him not too, leading to his suffering at the hands of his father in a prison that is broadcast to the entire city (so everyone sees their hero get beaten up within an inch of his life). As a direct result of this fight, Garmadon becomes strong enough to form a massive stone Colossus that destroys the city and supposedly kills Lloyd’s family in front of him, to which Lloyd blames himself

Season 12, Prime Empire — Lloyd choses to participate in a 1on1 fight with an NPC (context: they’re trapped in an evil videogame) despite Nya and Jay offering themselves to fight instead. This results in Lloyd having to fight an NPC Harumi, who Lloyd manages to kill despite his hesitation and trauma, but is killed in response. As it’s his final game life, he gets cubed (aka turned into an energy battery for the game to make a portal to the real world for the AI to escape). Yep, this counts as a death. Again.

Season 16, Crytalized — Lloyd intentionally disguises himself and infiltrates the newly formed Council of the Crystal King (yes, the acronym is as unfortunate as you think). He gets caught by his own badly-lying hand and realizes he fell into a trap, and Harumi blows up the subway tunnel and supposedly kills Lloyd’s family. He blames himself because he was the one who insisted they use his plan (he also succumbs a litttttle bit to darkness and nearly murders Harumi with oni powers)

And those are just some off the top of my head!

Unrelated to the above, but I personally think the worst (best) tragedies are the ones that could have barely been avoided, especially by human mistake. If it’s completely unavoidable, it’s more despairing, but if there was a glimmer of hope to avoid it all… and it was missed… that is the most human tragedy.

Ex 1. Antigone had (from your summary, at least) multiple chances to not-die. Had she taken one, it could have been avoided, but alas, she didn’t.

Ex. 2 Lloyd & Garmadon’s relation had multiple points where all the trauma and heartbreak and unfixableness could have been avoided (if Garmadon hadn’t been bitten by the evil-venom of the Great Devourer, if Lloyd hadn’t released the Serpentine that release the Great Devourer and give Harumi her motication to use Garmadon to hurt Lloyd, if Lloyd didn’t sacrifice Garmadon, if he’d found a way to free Garmadon before the Cursed Realm was destroyed, if he hadn’t believed Harumi, if he hadn’t led her to the final mask needed for her ritual, if he hadn’t gotten himself captured and used as a distraction to give Harumi the chance to finish the ceremony, if he hadn’t gone to fight Garmadon on his own, if if if)

What do you think?

P.S. Thanks for being really respectful and civil, it’s fun having these soft debates that get you to analysis media :D I’ve been rotating thoughts about cycles all day ahsjsjsffs

I recognize that there can be debate over how to define tragedy, like Greek tragedies hardly all followed Aristotle's definition and those were in turn different from things like Shakespearean tragedy or modern definitions of "tragic character" but I think at the very least a tragic character should have a coherent arc, quality over quantity. A bunch of UNRELATED bad things happening to a character just because a show has gone on for a really long time isn't really telling a coherent tragic story. Especially when some of the bad things happening are literally repeats of each other. Like I haven't watched Ninjago but I keep hearing about how Lloyd had to kill his father 3 times, but I think reusing a "he has to kill his father" plot point over and over again while not having him die for real just to give each season a new plot is a lot less tragic than a more coherent narrative where someone just has to kill their father once and this ties into their overall character arc.

Very valid opinion

Nya stands in the centre of the warehouse, watching with the sort of amused horror one would get watching a firework spiral toward a bag of marshmallows (that had been quite the mess Wu had forced them to clean up). Around her, her friends and brother struggle with their suddenly swapped powers.

Jesse stands next to her, his expression leaning more toward the horror side. “What even happened?”

Nya pop a bubblegum bubble she’s been chewing to stay calm. “Garmadon, most likely. We just woke up to them swapped.”

She flicks her wrist, hosing down the trail of fire her boyfriend leaves with each step. He bounces around the warehouse with boundless energy, flames licking at his heels like an excited puppy chasing a butterfly, and Nya’s had to put out more than a few fires.

Jay suddenly steps into one of these fires and disappears, pyroporting in front of Nya. “Nya Nya Nya love of my life hey Nya hi you’re beautiful today like always hi hey—“

Jesse’s expression manages to get more horrified. “How many cups of coffee did Walker have?”

Nya shakes her head with a sigh. “Zero.”

It certainly doesn’t look like it, the way Kai’s firepowers drive him onward like a wind-up toy that never stops.

Speaking of her brother— Kai sits in the corner of the warehouse, unmoving as if he were nothing but a statue made of ice, and shivering as if he actually was one. He’s wrapped in about a dozen blankets, a cocoon of warmth that doesn’t seem to warm the chill in his soul. His teeth clatter so loud Nya can hear it over the rest of the chaos. The only good news is his suddenly-arctic-blue eyes aren’t glowing— in fact, there’s no signs of his new frosty element at all despite his shivering.

It’s in stark contrast to Cole. Despite his calming meditation on the far side of the warehouse, each time Jay runs too close with pounding footsteps, Cole’s mouth twitches just the slightest bit and lightning sparks erupt from his body. Each failure to contain the sharp crackles under his skin only irritate him more, and if Jesse wasn’t so worried about accidentally being shocked (or making a lovesick fool of himself), Nya guesses he’d probably be sitting almost in Cole’s lap trying to calm him down.

Zane probably looks the most comfortable on the surface— excluding Jay, who looks far too giddy and restless for Nya’s liking as the fire messes with his head— but even he struggles, temperature fluctuating at random. He has a relatively good grip on his new element as he tries to tidy the warehouse, except for the slightest bit of dirt he keeps leaving behind that he’s stuck cleaning in an endless circle. Nya can see the strain starting to wear on him as hints of magnolia yellow blossom in his eyes.

“Any luck on finding a reversal?” Jesse asks, fidgeting with a flower he suddenly produces from nowhere.

Nya shakes her head. “I sent Lloyd to look through Wu’s scrolls for anything, but all he’s texted me so far is that he caught a sniffle from all the dust.”

A loud CRASH emanates from outside. Nya and Jesse have just enough time to look at each other before a large hole is blasted through the doors.

“HEYYYYYYY BEACHES!”

Nya groans at the familiar cackle. “Olivia. Why does it have to be her? Why right now?”

Her eyes flare cyan with frustration. Jesse throws his hands up in a calming gesture. “We can handle this, with or without the guys.”

“They’re never going to stay out of the fight, you know.”

“Uhhh—“

Jesse hates to admit it, but Nya is right.

This is not good.

Out of curiosity, who would you swap on a bodyswap/element swap?

And who’s the most likely to have an accidental elemental outburst because the element & emotions that respond strongest to that outburst is different than their usual outbursts?

I think swapping the opposites (Cole+Jay and Kai+Zane) would probably yield the most chaotic results. Jay just constantly causing earthquakes just cuz he’s happy, and Cole trying to bury all his emotions but they keep coming out in sharp crackles at even the smallest bit of provoking. Or Kai being the coldest he’s even been in his life but the Ice isn’t responding to his extreme distress because Ice thrives with less emotion. And then Zane being unable to keep still with the thrum of Fire constantly burning in him, always itching to do something, anything, and disagreeing with Zane’s natural instinct to wait and watch.

But, them swapping with an element more “adjacent” to them could be super fun too! And, honestly, in this very specific scenario they’d probably have more Outbursts from being out of tune with their newfound elements.

Kai with Lightning would be chaotic—while both Fire and Lightning can hit high intensities, Lightning is meant to be temporary while Fire is meant to persist. He’d get a rush on all that power and energy all at once (especially while flying/teleporting ahaha) but then he would not be able to handle the following crash. If he had an Outburst, regardless of emotion, he’d be in pain trying to push through it or tap out completely

With Earth, both thrive with endurance, but there’s the obvious difference in fluidity. Kai would feel powerful with Earth, sure, but it would also come off as suffocating. And he, quicker to get emotional than Cole, would never feel like he could get all his emotions out, further frustrating him (which in turn would also probably cause an agonizing outburst)

For Jay, having Fire would probably make him even more jittery, except he wouldn’t have a cap on his energy, so he’d be go-go-go and never stop (and he wouldn’t know how to regulate it, meaning he’d hit a point where he’d need a break eventually but the Fire in him would oppose that). Moreover, if Fire reacts with his feelings of Sadness, then all the stuff he tries to hide behind his jokes and smiles? Yeah that’d all get bumped right up to the surface.

And then, if Jay had Ice he’d feel like he’s been slowed down too much. Always trying to do more but he can’t (similar to Kai with Earth). Inversely, Jay’s tendency to constantly distance himself from his less pleasant emotions would make the Ice in him stronger, so the more he tries to play things off the further he’d push himself towards an Outburst (instead of it being the opposite way with his Lightning)

Cole with Fire would be fascinating, cuz all the things he normally keeps buried would have no cap/filter/limitation anymore, meaning he couldn’t hide how he really feels even if he tries catch him flaming up just trying to talk to Zane or dealing with his dad lol). He’d feel comfortable with the amount of power Fire gives him, just not super strength

Cole with Ice, though—similar to Jay, Cole distances himself from feelings he doesn’t want to feel (or thinks he doesn’t want to), so he too would probably push himself closer to an Outburst without actively trying. But otherwise I’d think Cole would find Ice as a refreshing change of pace; it’s still got some solidity of Earth, so that’s familiar, but he wouldn’t have to be as rigid with it either (he prefers the guarantee of support over the fragility of Ice, but it’s a little nice to let loose)

Same with Zane and Earth—Earth has the same semblance of structure that Ice does, so he can work with that, but he’d struggle with the permanence. He’s committed, but not necessarily stubborn, so having less room for some flexibility would come off as stifling to him. Plus, Earth can either be hot or cold, so Zane would probably hate the inconsistency of temperature

Zane with Lightning—here he can understand the “temporary” principles of Lightning easily enough and use it to his advantage, but with Lightning being so erratic and without consistent form, he’d struggle to manipulate it for himself. And with Lightning, he’d also be less able to hide what he’s feeling—even the slightest grievance or joy would be punctuated with sparks, haha

And now having written all of this out, Lloyd swapping with any of them wouldn’t be nearly as fun given that he’s already able to connect and/or use aspects of their Elements, so he wouldn’t struggle nearly as much—he just might feel limited but not like there’s a gaping hole of something missing either.

AHHHHHHH LOOK AT HOW AMAZING AND ADORABLE THIS IS—

AWWWWW Bumblebee is so freaking cute-

May I request Arin teaching Percival how to ride a dragon? Or at least doing that whole HTTYD-style trust bonding "it's okay the big giant dragon won't hurt you you can put a hand on their snout" thing?

IGNORE HOW ARIN LOOKS LIKE HE'S JUST COPY AND PASTED THERE, i struggled a lil with the pose also yes bumblebee is adorable

VOTE LLOYD THE PROPAGANDA DOESN’T EVEN MENTION HALF THE SH!T HE GOES THROUGH (including straight-up dying— kinda multiple times) NOR ANY OF THE MOVIE WHICH, TO SUMMARIZE—

He's the second most HATED PERSON IN THE CITY (second only to the dad he’s never known who’s an evil warlord) just because he’s the son of said warlord no matter how much he tries, has songs bullying him REACH THE NUMBER 1 CHART MULTIPLE TIMES, has a mental block on catching/throwing because of his absent dad, gets told by his uncle on his birthday (which his dad also attacks on) that his hands are the wrong hands, constantly defends a city that hates him as the Green Ninja, accidentally causes the destruction of his city, watches/thinks all his friends DIED because of him, gets bullied by said friends (we ignore this part), goes on a dangerous quest, loses his uncle, has to team up with his dad who bullies him in front of his friends, gets captured and nearly thrown into a volcano by crazy generals, LOSES HIS DUCKING ARM, gets locked in a crumbling and unstable temple with no food by his dad after he thought he broke through to him, watches his dad (who he still cares about despite Garmadon being a sh!tty dad) get eaten by a cat, and just...

Poor Lloyd. There is so, so much trauma.

Have I mentioned he’s had visions of all his friends and family dying? And has had to watch his family die multiple times? Believed them dead on different multiple occasions? Is the DEFINITION of “prophecy chosen one” who gets put through SO MUCH by the universe?

PROPAGANDA UNDER THE CUT: [SPOILERS AND POSSIBLE TRIGGERS AHEAD]

ANTIGONE:

LLOYD GARMADON:

May I make an addition to the “Jay cannot die” one—

Sometimes instead of the attacker taking the damage, it will instead ricochet off to Zane. It doesn’t matter where he is— he could be kilometres away— but some contrived series of coincidences and freak accidents domino-effected by the attack on Jay will make its way over to Zane instead. He’ll die for the thousandth time and get revived five minutes later. Nobody except one person (perhaps Pixal or Dareth) connects the two situations.

Ninjago AU, but every person who reblogs gets to add/change one detail of canon.

I'll start: Zane has a criminal record, but no one knows what his crimes are.

A fair opinion! If I may make a counterargument with context—

There’s inherent tragedy in the reason WHY Lloyd has to kill his dad. It’s interconnected in one MASSIVE series arc that is incredibly tragic in terms of the themes of family Ninjago has always strived for.

Lloyd, young 8-year-old Season 1 Lloyd, once looked up to his father. He wanted to be just like him, evil and all, even when Garmadon was banished to the Underworld Lloyd’s whole 8-year-old life. He finds out he has to fight his father (possibly to the death),something his father, corrupted by evil, does not want. There’s struggle on both sides to avoid this fight, but destiny finds a way. Lloyd is a child when he has to fight his possessed dad, and after a very emotionally grueling battle, manages to win. His father is finally free from evil. Everything should be happy.

Except Lloyd is trapped forever by destiny, by the narrative, by the cycle of war and grief and tragedy that Ninjago writes (seriously, cycles and spinning are central themes in this series). And he only gets his father back for a short while before he has to sacrifice him to save his home, has to banish him to the Cursed Realm & therefor get him “killed”. It’s a theme of sacrifice that Lloyd has always had to do— sacrifice his childhood to the prophecy of the Green Ninja, sacrifice his powers, sacrifice his father, sacrifice his life, all for “destiny” (which is literally written as a narrative in-universe by the Cloud Kingdom).

And then the next season, his father dies when the cursed realm is destroyed, all because Lloyd opened the portal there in the first place allowing some ghosts to escape & sent his father to that realm.

And Lloyd grieves.

A few seasons later, Harumi (you’ve seen her mentions in Lloyd’s propaganda, it’s this whole other tragic thing) resurects Lloyd’s father, but only the evilness. There is no trace of the man he once was. Lloyd fights him again, tries to reach out to him the way he once did in the prophecy battle—

And is beaten within an inch of his life and thrown through multiple walls by his father. His father takes over the city, destroys it, sends a vicious manhunt after an injured Lloyd. His father (at least from Lloyd’s perspective, unaware they escaped) murders multiple members of Lloyd’s family. Over and over, Lloyd is hurt by him.

And then we see a mirror that shows your deepest, darkest fear. And when Lloyd stands before it, he sees himself becoming his father. The thing he once wanted more than anything has become his greatest fear. He is scarred, never to recover, having lost all hope and love for the person he once loved more than anyone, his idol, his hero, his father.

(And that’s not even touching all the stuff with Garmadon in the movie, nor all of Lloyd’s other traumas like dying multiple times or getting possessed or being isolated for years thinking all his friends/family is dead or watching said friends and family die multiple times or everything else)

I recognize that there can be debate over how to define tragedy, like Greek tragedies hardly all followed Aristotle's definition and those were in turn different from things like Shakespearean tragedy or modern definitions of "tragic character" but I think at the very least a tragic character should have a coherent arc, quality over quantity. A bunch of UNRELATED bad things happening to a character just because a show has gone on for a really long time isn't really telling a coherent tragic story. Especially when some of the bad things happening are literally repeats of each other. Like I haven't watched Ninjago but I keep hearing about how Lloyd had to kill his father 3 times, but I think reusing a "he has to kill his father" plot point over and over again while not having him die for real just to give each season a new plot is a lot less tragic than a more coherent narrative where someone just has to kill their father once and this ties into their overall character arc.

Very valid opinion