I Think 90% Of Asc Fans Are Annoying By The Point - Ascended Astarion = Cazador 2.0It's Literally A Mockery

I think 90% of Asc fans are annoying by the point - Ascended Astarion = Cazador 2.0 It's literally a mockery for me, -- Cazador has a tiny amount of screen time. It's cardboard. -- This devalues Astarion's evil qualities. Which are deep and formed even without Cazador'sin Astarion past when he was a harsh noble magistrate. Cazador influenced them, fear was added. But it didn't cross his will which leaned toward "evil" acts, I'm sure - always did. -- It devalues the path Astarion has traveled. He could be an evil Lord, greedy for power. He can take a more careful path, due to the experience he's had, and if his dark consort doesn't want constant slaughter. And he literally goes down that path of becoming the "Puppet Master", in Original too What makes him different from most Lords in power in Faerun? Lord Astarion plays the power game like most in Baldur's Gate. And The Baldur's Gate is the cradle of corruptibility

Speaking of romance, here's a great point. And another great one

I've been thinking about how the game (and fandom) likens ascended Astarion to Cazador and... I don't really see it?

I mean the main things we know about Cazador are that he's a) willing to sacrifice 7000 people for power, b) power hungry, c) a sadist and d) enjoys controlling people.

but here's the thing. Astarion is power hungry and willing to sacrifice 7000 people before ascending. he doesn't magically become particularly sadistic, and while he does get bossy, he's not actually controlling the way it would be very easy for him to be (with a romanced Tav/Durge, at least if you don't subscribe to the bride theory and think they're just a spawn). like he asks the player what they want to do after everything. that's not... where is he like Cazador?

and don't get me wrong I love me some dark, toxic romance so I'm not even opposed to the idea of him becoming Cazador 2.0, but the text just doesn't really support it?

did I miss something because I can start zoning out near the end of the game?

I agree that people need more chill to everything, especially in fiction. But I disagree with you on something.

I choose Astarion in part because I want my own castle and army with a merry villain man in Dark Fantasy. Unless trauma can only be healed by grave therapy - and I don't think so. I don't see the tragedy in it and I don't think I'm delulu. Like, what's tragic about Astarion and his Tav, who chooses "yes we are flourishing and I love you" answers. Disney literally gave up on the idea - a powerful couple of villains in Wish. … Astarion certainly doesn't let go angst-drama-Tav it's the dynamics of the golden cage that not everyone plays. Romance with Astarion is a Dark Romance with a vampire for me, the genre speaks for itself. Although the conversation here can go without romance.

Lord Astarion is lonely without Tav – it’s all.

How Astarion differs from any Lord in Faerun, and the people at the helm of Baldur's Gate? Seriously, they're all like that. More often than not. Corrupted, do evil things, weaving their web of power - and they have wives and families they really love and happy. A villain can lose his family\status\everything, for example because of his mistake in corrupted affairs - and learn the "morally right" lesson, become a better person or learn the lesson of where he messed up in his corrupted affairs and take enough power to get revenge so no one touches him again, and still gaining wisdom on how to build your power and finding someone along the way who cares and supports, while staying happy. Then Minthara isn't healthy either. And cycle of abuse (but she's not, and not Cazador, and Lord Astarion is not Cazador), just like any villain and maybe any morally gray selfish character who wants their own coat of arms and is possessive in love, in dark fantasy. In that case, only a hippie is healthy.

"Real healing or personal development" = good path, be good(er) - that is purity culture.

I usually try to stay in my lane most of the time (mostly bc I am far too old for fandom drama) but what the hell, it's friday, let's put that lit degree to use:

the way people are playing morality politics with fiction is really starting to genuinely irk me and I think some of the responses to ascended astarion are a perfect example of why this type of thinking is actually hugely detrimental to one's ability to meaningfully engage with fiction and also to the future of art.

astarion is one of the most well-written complex characters I've seen in recent years bar none (and I'm clearly not alone given the explosion of his personal fandom lol) and he has a truly compelling, emotionally resonant character arc whether you ascend him or not

If you keep him a spawn, you get a deeply touching, realistic character's journey to healing and personal growth where he learns who he is after the experience of his trauma and depending on the player's choice, explores his relationship to sex, romance and intimacy

If you ascend astarion, you get an equally emotional and well-rounded character arc where he chooses the power that allows him to have the desperate freedom and safety he's wanted, but in the process eschews any hope of real healing or personal development, and again, depending on the player's choices, restarts the cycle of abuse by taking cazador's place.

These options offer vastly different paths for the character and experiences for the player, but while yes, ascended astarion is the evil ending, and yes, ascending astarion is a tragedy, and a fucking incredible one (not only do you have astarion reigniting a circle of abuse but you have the narrative weight of KNOWING he could have actually overcome his trauma...hats off to the bg3 team tbh) but that does not mean ascending astarion MAKES YOU AS THE PLAYER EVIL

Ascend astarion because you love tragic story arcs, ascend him because you want to indulge in a master/slave vampire fantasy, don't ascend him because you want a healing character journey, don't ascend him because you want a sweet romance; all of these choices carry the same moral weight for the player, which is to say, none, because they are an exploration of fiction.

I know I'm saying this to the villain fucker website but it bears repeating; just because someone wants to engage with evil, fucked up characters or content does not mean they support evil acts in their real life, and furthermore, exploring dark, taboo or tragic concepts safely is part of what fiction is for. It enables us to look at those things from a distance, work through difficult feelings and develop greater understanding of what makes our fellow humans tick — and before you get it twisted there's also no moral issue with exploring fucked up media bc you're horny or just, because. You can take it as seriously (or as sexily) as you want.

It's starting to really concern me how many people not only do not get, but are violently opposed to this concept, because equating what someone likes in fiction with their real life moral code and actions is an incredibly dangerous and let's be honest, immature way of thinking that not only stunts your ability to engage with fiction but ironically, hampers your ability to deal with complicated issues and emotions in real life.

I don't know what's driving this trend (though purity culture is certainly playing a role) but it's definitely something that's not just impacting individuals but contributing to the commercialization of art, where we get games and stories and tv shows and books that regurgitate the same safe, mass marketable plotlines and character archetypes over and over and over again so corporations can squeeze out as much profit as possible.

Anyway, remember kids: There's no such thing as thought crime, reaching for morally pure unproblematic media is directly contributing to the death of art, and this is why funding the humanities is important.

Vampy possessive cat, decadent, cute and fun. Love him. Brushie

As a life long villain-fucker I just don’t relate to all the hand wringing over Ascended Astarion. Sorry but he’s not even the evilest or most deeply pathetic man I’ve ever wanted to peg.

I agree, I love the dark side of all Astarions so much. Asc Astarion is good. I'll say this. Asc A is one of the best characters I've seen. Asc is not an evil-sphere. He can even do something good. Because it was like that from Act 1.

Already the writers have said that his evil side has intensified, and it always has. Reinforced why? 1 - Devil magic voodoo-hoodoo. 2 - The rules of a true vampire (how it works with Ascension?) 3 - Astarion got what he wanted and doesn't hold back at all. Probably playing the Lord and Master he wanted to be and how he saw himself. Honestly, that's the way noble behaves, many of them.

If it's 2. He's a true vampire - a horrible monster with no feelings, no soul. That's how Faerun sees all spawn. Need I say what a romance with a vampire is and why people are interested in it. Because it's never pure, it's dangerous and it's always complicated. And the fact that he was a magistrate. (probably not the best in BG) He ruled as he wished and now the world is judging him for his vampirism. So, in the ascension, he (we) chose "evil power". The way the fandom reacts furiously to this…. When they were already with him. Character can only be a "gooder" but if you don't fix yourself we'll kill you at the party and laugh. Ironic. Some people don't want to see something complicated just that they failed to fix. Who sees is delulu, of course. And if someone don't die and get the "evil power" they suffer endlessly, will be miserable and eventually the lightning of justice will kill them. Purity culture. Mikimaus' ears in the moon spots. Honestly for me Dark Fantasy is where evil can take triumph. For me, the whole point of the character is "evil" can also be complex, just like "good".

If you attack ascended Astarion at the epilogue party as a mindflayer, all the rest of the companions will join in the attack with you. Which doesn't make a ton of sense from my perspective because frankly, they should all be just as scared of mindflayer Tav as they are of ascended Astarion, if not even more so. Let's just be real and admit that Astarion, as "mean" as he is when he breaks up with mindflayer Tav, is 100% correct. Tav is not Tav anymore. Ilithids don't have souls. They're not a person anymore. And Tav can prove it by attacking him out of the blue at a peaceful-ass gathering. Even Astarion with how cruel and egotistical he becomes when ascended is still more "human" than a mindflayer because he at least retains his soul and personality, as warped as it becomes. That's all besides the point, though.

My main point it I just find it weird how so many so-called Astarion "fans" revile in this scene and find it so funny how Astarion "gets his comeuppance" in this scene or whatever. And I don't know about anyone else, but I find this scene incredibly sad and tragic. Both Astarion and Tav have lost themselves completely (Tav even more so than Astarion, I would argue). And it kinda baffles me how so few fans of Astarion can see how much he's clearly hurting here as well?

He claims he hasn't thought about Tav in the past 6 months, and he delivers the line in a way that is clearly meant to sting as much as possible. People point to that moment as a "gotcha" moment that Astarion genuinely doesn't miss Tav. But he then immediately contradicts this a few sentences later when he says thinks all the time about what could have been if they had stayed his consort and never became a mindflayer. And that all his power is nothing without Tav by his side (paraphrasing).

"OH he's just manipulating Tav" why would he say anything that would make him look weak or vulnerable? If anything, he should be bragging about how GREAT he's doing without Tav. How awesome his life as a vampire lord is without them. And at first he does just that, the first half of the conversation is all bragging. But the longer he talks to them, the more the little hurtful truths slip out behind the hateful words. Like for as much as fans claim to understand that Astarion will often say one thing but mean another some of them sure are shit at being able to tell when he's clearly covering up his hurt with vitriol.

And again there's something weird about cheering on mindflayer Tav when their turn can be considered just as tragic as Astarion ascending. Like don't get me wrong I enjoy letting a monster do their thing. But it's like this weird double standard where mindflayer Tav's monstrosity is good and cool to idolize and joke about them wanting to eat the brains of their friends but the second someone has fantasies about being Astarion's consort they need to be psychoanalyzed.

And it's also ridiculous that if you even so much as suggest that hey, maybe there's more going on with ascended Astarion than meets the eye, maybe he actually is suffering in his isolation, ect. you get called a delusional idiot because people just really want to believe Astarion is truly a 100% different person from his ascended self when that's simply. not. true. Again the writers have confirmed the ritual didn't consume his soul. The ritual amplified all his worst personality traits that he already had.

I'm not saying you need to love ascended Astarion BUT if you love his character for what he is you should be able to at least appreciate him. You should be able to at least find him tragic and compelling. Kinda annoyed that many fans, who are seemingly uncomfortable with being confronted with this side of him, would rather turn him into a big joke or reduce his full spectrum of emotion to just "smug apathy."

That's why fanon paints Lord Astarion only in angst colors. Forgetting that it's still Astarion, it's confirmed. So he's still chaotic cute and fun. And he's possessive now. I'm sure a little fun with Halsin wouldn't be too much trouble. Tav is his. The fact that Astarion is so intensely interested in Tav only makes it more interesting to me. It's flirting lol, vampire flirting. I'd like more answers for Tav where they can say "Astarion, you were right nothing and no one can change that". He'll purr like a cat, I think.

If Astarion didn't allow Tav to do these things with someone - it would make sense...

Astarion had orgies, in the unrealized epilogues. The patch 5 epilogues also have decadence hedonistic parties (which is probably it) It's not that he's against it still. Astarion is quite a horny.

Yes, his bond with Tav is dot the i's and cross the t's. He'll start sulking if it becomes something really serious, I guess. Then he'll start hissing.

In all my play throughs that I’ve romanced Astarion, I’ve never ascended him. I had a thought- does letting him ascend have any effect on you dating Halsin as well? Like does he still allow you to have Halsin on the side or as an ascended Vampire does he no longer allow it?

(I realize there’s a separate conversation that could be had about whether Astarion was ever truly comfortable with you being with Halsin too- not dismissing that, but that could be a conversation for another post.)

All this to say, I have a head canon in my brain hole, where once the epilogue comes around, Tav isn’t allowed to even talk to Halsin, because they “belong” to Astarion.

Knowing what I know about ascended Astarion, and how possessive he can be/is over Tav- I’d be surprised if after ascending he isn’t just like “That thing with Halsin? I forbid it!”

Idk- just something i was thinking about this morning. Would love to hear people’s thoughts- I’ve been toying around with an idea for a one shot based on this, and while i already have my ideas for it, I was wondering how it went in-game.

That's exactly how I felt seeing those answers from Tav and hearing him talk about love. People take it too literally. They treat him like he's not the same Astarion anymore. He really wants to be the not-so-Astarion - in his mind, weak and pathetic. He wants to be the Lord that nothing can control. Not even feelings. Astarion is always the trickster. No, the character was written for 3 acts, and then instead of revealing his dark side, his complexity - in a full-blown evil ending it is now "not Astarion" - no soul, lost himself, no feelings, Cazador 2 - The Great Absurd of fandom. He doesn't even have to say anything to Tav is he doesn't care, he doesn't have to offer to "be allies in crime". DnD5 rules and true vampirism - and the feelings of vampires - add complexity to analyze, it's already a more rational position. But what about the Ascension and the "first living" vampire. That could have an impact. Well even vampires are a bit more complicated, according to DnD2 for sure. They have their own feelings. If vampire distortion would have an effect, spawns have it working too. But the discussion about vampirism and its influence - is it worth such attention - when it's already confirmed that it's Astarion himself, still him.

Man, it adds nobility points to Lord Astarion that he realizes the kind of love he's offering - decadence, danger and no turning back. This is where the "degrade yourself" comes from, which is also seen as "you're a doofus, Tav" - no way, geez. That would be dark love. Besides he's still wounded inside from 200 years of suffering. His self-esteem is low. Astarion hasn't lost his complexity with the ritual….

Astarion is still Astarion, and with Tav, who agrees and supports him, he is happy. Without Tav, he's more lonely.

Okay, so what about when Astarion says, after you break up with him after Ascension that he would've twisted your love and that he respects you for your choice? Because to me that reads clear as day.

Heh, alright, let's talk about this.

You can read this convo in three ways:

1 - you read it as it is, that the moment he ascended his love for Tav immediately turned malicious which is... such a braindead take I cannot even comprehend how people completely miss who Astarion is as a person the moment he ascends. He's not a different person, not fully and not entirely. He's changed, but he's not different.

2 - you can read it as Astarion being genuine and I mean that he still says what he means but with no malice behind his words. That he truly thinks that in the long run - he would've "corrupted" Tav and their love for him because he's self aware for only that conversation and suddenly realizes that he's a horrible person now (lol)

or

3 - you can see him as coping. First he yells at Tav and flaunts his power, telling how he could've turned them against their will, how he's better without them, how he doesn't need them. I have issue with the whole post break-up conversation (when you refuse to be his spawn) and about how one sided it is. You either tell him he's Cazador 2 (which is utterly absurd but I won't go into that here) or you tell him that you miss the boy he was before ascension which not only shows that Tav haven't listened to a single thing when Ritual of Profane Ascension was discussed AND has an unhealthy view of this man in the first place. Not to mention that you call him a boy, you know, something Cazador did to demean his manhood and independence? Yeah, that. And then somehow people are surprised when he doesn't respond positively. He's not Gale, he's not going to cry in the corner, not anymore. He's stronger and more powerful than he ever was and he won't let Tav who just abandoned him see that he's hurting.

So why the responses about ruining Tav's love and respecting them for the choice? Timing. First he lashes out and shows his fangs like an animal, showing that it doesn't phase him. Only some long rests later he will talk to you when he's calmer. Do you think he's hurting any less? I don't think so. He's hurting, badly. The only person he ever trusted, loved and truly wanted in his life just up and left him, citing how he's "not the same person" anymore. Telling him that they love him exclusively just for certain traits and habits, that his worth resides only in certain aspects of his state of being. Tav is telling him that when he's afraid, when he's weak and when he's unsure and lost is what they prefer. Does that sound right to you?

So what does Astarion can even say in this moment? He still loves Tav, elves rarely fall out of love or remarry, no way his love faded in a mere matter of a handful of days. He loves them, dearly and he's in pain. And now that his anger is lesser after being initially dumped - he still tries to do right by Tav. He tells Tav all the things they want to hear: that he's awful, a monster, that he would've twisted their love. He takes on this image that Tav projects onto him and he wears it as a badge because he knows he cannot have them back, that's settled, but the least he can do is not make Tav regret their choices, either now or later. For their sake.

(and sorry if I'm forward but I'd also like to hear your thoughts on this @bananasfosterparent if you don't mind!)