I Think 90% Of Asc Fans Are Annoying By The Point - Ascended Astarion = Cazador 2.0It's Literally A Mockery

I think 90% of Asc fans are annoying by the point - Ascended Astarion = Cazador 2.0 It's literally a mockery for me, -- Cazador has a tiny amount of screen time. It's cardboard. -- This devalues Astarion's evil qualities. Which are deep and formed even without Cazador'sin Astarion past when he was a harsh noble magistrate. Cazador influenced them, fear was added. But it didn't cross his will which leaned toward "evil" acts, I'm sure - always did. -- It devalues the path Astarion has traveled. He could be an evil Lord, greedy for power. He can take a more careful path, due to the experience he's had, and if his dark consort doesn't want constant slaughter. And he literally goes down that path of becoming the "Puppet Master", in Original too What makes him different from most Lords in power in Faerun? Lord Astarion plays the power game like most in Baldur's Gate. And The Baldur's Gate is the cradle of corruptibility

Speaking of romance, here's a great point. And another great one

I've been thinking about how the game (and fandom) likens ascended Astarion to Cazador and... I don't really see it?

I mean the main things we know about Cazador are that he's a) willing to sacrifice 7000 people for power, b) power hungry, c) a sadist and d) enjoys controlling people.

but here's the thing. Astarion is power hungry and willing to sacrifice 7000 people before ascending. he doesn't magically become particularly sadistic, and while he does get bossy, he's not actually controlling the way it would be very easy for him to be (with a romanced Tav/Durge, at least if you don't subscribe to the bride theory and think they're just a spawn). like he asks the player what they want to do after everything. that's not... where is he like Cazador?

and don't get me wrong I love me some dark, toxic romance so I'm not even opposed to the idea of him becoming Cazador 2.0, but the text just doesn't really support it?

did I miss something because I can start zoning out near the end of the game?

So, I watched Labyrinth, and I hadn't watched it before. In one breath, it's beautiful.

It's a dark fairy tale. It can really scare kids, it's more for teenagers. It scared me :,D though. For adults, there are a lot of funny and ironic moments. I liked that at the end Sarah, doesn't leave her dark fairy tale, she has grown up, but the fairy tale and all will be with her, just in a new way.

Jareth radiates an Astarion mood or vice versa. But Jareth is calmer, Astarion is more a firecracker. They have a thing for Masqueradoes. Astarion calms down for the epilogue, which is more of a Jareth "oh not this again" kind of thing. I prefer to play "we're flourishing" and "anything you want?" Lord Astarion watches Tav through the glass orbs. Yes, that. Quite. I'd say either way - Tav is his consort, Tav broke up with him, Tav was a friend, Tav is his partner in crime, I think he'll always be interested and need to watch them. Lord Astarion's song in the end would have been more pompous I think and sparklingly fun, but still with enough lyricism.

Plus roleplay what I can finally say to the merry villain: - Yes, your Labyrinth, very interesting. I especially liked those talking rocks.

Beautiful. An interesting and refreshing point of view. Thank you. The romance with the Ascended Astarion is a complex nice dynamic and can be played very differently. My Tav will be sad if Astarion isn't watching. My Tav is probably pretty obsessed as well. It really depends on Tav.

I'm always watching - Ascended Astarion

Acended Astarion seems like a complex relationship dynamic between the characters him and Tav, especially when Astarion has ascended. In this state, he exhibits a certain obsession towards Tav. He watches her/him, stays close, and loves her intensely. Although he still seems to be himself, there's a hint of increased ambition or power hunger. Nevertheless, his primary desire is Tav, and the obsession and scrutiny provide him with a sense of security. The toxicity of this behavior depends on Tav's character.

Even after a breakup, Astarion continues to love and miss Tav. He appears to be internally conflicted, and his thoughts might sound something like:

"Keep you close to me. I long to for you. I need you. I can give you everything you need."

These lines express a mix of longing, love, and the acknowledgment of the need to give Tav the choice, reflecting the potential for the relationship to be perceived as toxic or not, depending on Tav's response.

That's exactly how I felt seeing those answers from Tav and hearing him talk about love. People take it too literally. They treat him like he's not the same Astarion anymore. He really wants to be the not-so-Astarion - in his mind, weak and pathetic. He wants to be the Lord that nothing can control. Not even feelings. Astarion is always the trickster. No, the character was written for 3 acts, and then instead of revealing his dark side, his complexity - in a full-blown evil ending it is now "not Astarion" - no soul, lost himself, no feelings, Cazador 2 - The Great Absurd of fandom. He doesn't even have to say anything to Tav is he doesn't care, he doesn't have to offer to "be allies in crime". DnD5 rules and true vampirism - and the feelings of vampires - add complexity to analyze, it's already a more rational position. But what about the Ascension and the "first living" vampire. That could have an impact. Well even vampires are a bit more complicated, according to DnD2 for sure. They have their own feelings. If vampire distortion would have an effect, spawns have it working too. But the discussion about vampirism and its influence - is it worth such attention - when it's already confirmed that it's Astarion himself, still him.

Man, it adds nobility points to Lord Astarion that he realizes the kind of love he's offering - decadence, danger and no turning back. This is where the "degrade yourself" comes from, which is also seen as "you're a doofus, Tav" - no way, geez. That would be dark love. Besides he's still wounded inside from 200 years of suffering. His self-esteem is low. Astarion hasn't lost his complexity with the ritual….

Astarion is still Astarion, and with Tav, who agrees and supports him, he is happy. Without Tav, he's more lonely.

Okay, so what about when Astarion says, after you break up with him after Ascension that he would've twisted your love and that he respects you for your choice? Because to me that reads clear as day.

Heh, alright, let's talk about this.

You can read this convo in three ways:

1 - you read it as it is, that the moment he ascended his love for Tav immediately turned malicious which is... such a braindead take I cannot even comprehend how people completely miss who Astarion is as a person the moment he ascends. He's not a different person, not fully and not entirely. He's changed, but he's not different.

2 - you can read it as Astarion being genuine and I mean that he still says what he means but with no malice behind his words. That he truly thinks that in the long run - he would've "corrupted" Tav and their love for him because he's self aware for only that conversation and suddenly realizes that he's a horrible person now (lol)

or

3 - you can see him as coping. First he yells at Tav and flaunts his power, telling how he could've turned them against their will, how he's better without them, how he doesn't need them. I have issue with the whole post break-up conversation (when you refuse to be his spawn) and about how one sided it is. You either tell him he's Cazador 2 (which is utterly absurd but I won't go into that here) or you tell him that you miss the boy he was before ascension which not only shows that Tav haven't listened to a single thing when Ritual of Profane Ascension was discussed AND has an unhealthy view of this man in the first place. Not to mention that you call him a boy, you know, something Cazador did to demean his manhood and independence? Yeah, that. And then somehow people are surprised when he doesn't respond positively. He's not Gale, he's not going to cry in the corner, not anymore. He's stronger and more powerful than he ever was and he won't let Tav who just abandoned him see that he's hurting.

So why the responses about ruining Tav's love and respecting them for the choice? Timing. First he lashes out and shows his fangs like an animal, showing that it doesn't phase him. Only some long rests later he will talk to you when he's calmer. Do you think he's hurting any less? I don't think so. He's hurting, badly. The only person he ever trusted, loved and truly wanted in his life just up and left him, citing how he's "not the same person" anymore. Telling him that they love him exclusively just for certain traits and habits, that his worth resides only in certain aspects of his state of being. Tav is telling him that when he's afraid, when he's weak and when he's unsure and lost is what they prefer. Does that sound right to you?

So what does Astarion can even say in this moment? He still loves Tav, elves rarely fall out of love or remarry, no way his love faded in a mere matter of a handful of days. He loves them, dearly and he's in pain. And now that his anger is lesser after being initially dumped - he still tries to do right by Tav. He tells Tav all the things they want to hear: that he's awful, a monster, that he would've twisted their love. He takes on this image that Tav projects onto him and he wears it as a badge because he knows he cannot have them back, that's settled, but the least he can do is not make Tav regret their choices, either now or later. For their sake.

(and sorry if I'm forward but I'd also like to hear your thoughts on this @bananasfosterparent if you don't mind!)

I agree, I love the dark side of all Astarions so much. Asc Astarion is good. I'll say this. Asc A is one of the best characters I've seen. Asc is not an evil-sphere. He can even do something good. Because it was like that from Act 1.

Already the writers have said that his evil side has intensified, and it always has. Reinforced why? 1 - Devil magic voodoo-hoodoo. 2 - The rules of a true vampire (how it works with Ascension?) 3 - Astarion got what he wanted and doesn't hold back at all. Probably playing the Lord and Master he wanted to be and how he saw himself. Honestly, that's the way noble behaves, many of them.

If it's 2. He's a true vampire - a horrible monster with no feelings, no soul. That's how Faerun sees all spawn. Need I say what a romance with a vampire is and why people are interested in it. Because it's never pure, it's dangerous and it's always complicated. And the fact that he was a magistrate. (probably not the best in BG) He ruled as he wished and now the world is judging him for his vampirism. So, in the ascension, he (we) chose "evil power". The way the fandom reacts furiously to this…. When they were already with him. Character can only be a "gooder" but if you don't fix yourself we'll kill you at the party and laugh. Ironic. Some people don't want to see something complicated just that they failed to fix. Who sees is delulu, of course. And if someone don't die and get the "evil power" they suffer endlessly, will be miserable and eventually the lightning of justice will kill them. Purity culture. Mikimaus' ears in the moon spots. Honestly for me Dark Fantasy is where evil can take triumph. For me, the whole point of the character is "evil" can also be complex, just like "good".

If you attack ascended Astarion at the epilogue party as a mindflayer, all the rest of the companions will join in the attack with you. Which doesn't make a ton of sense from my perspective because frankly, they should all be just as scared of mindflayer Tav as they are of ascended Astarion, if not even more so. Let's just be real and admit that Astarion, as "mean" as he is when he breaks up with mindflayer Tav, is 100% correct. Tav is not Tav anymore. Ilithids don't have souls. They're not a person anymore. And Tav can prove it by attacking him out of the blue at a peaceful-ass gathering. Even Astarion with how cruel and egotistical he becomes when ascended is still more "human" than a mindflayer because he at least retains his soul and personality, as warped as it becomes. That's all besides the point, though.

My main point it I just find it weird how so many so-called Astarion "fans" revile in this scene and find it so funny how Astarion "gets his comeuppance" in this scene or whatever. And I don't know about anyone else, but I find this scene incredibly sad and tragic. Both Astarion and Tav have lost themselves completely (Tav even more so than Astarion, I would argue). And it kinda baffles me how so few fans of Astarion can see how much he's clearly hurting here as well?

He claims he hasn't thought about Tav in the past 6 months, and he delivers the line in a way that is clearly meant to sting as much as possible. People point to that moment as a "gotcha" moment that Astarion genuinely doesn't miss Tav. But he then immediately contradicts this a few sentences later when he says thinks all the time about what could have been if they had stayed his consort and never became a mindflayer. And that all his power is nothing without Tav by his side (paraphrasing).

"OH he's just manipulating Tav" why would he say anything that would make him look weak or vulnerable? If anything, he should be bragging about how GREAT he's doing without Tav. How awesome his life as a vampire lord is without them. And at first he does just that, the first half of the conversation is all bragging. But the longer he talks to them, the more the little hurtful truths slip out behind the hateful words. Like for as much as fans claim to understand that Astarion will often say one thing but mean another some of them sure are shit at being able to tell when he's clearly covering up his hurt with vitriol.

And again there's something weird about cheering on mindflayer Tav when their turn can be considered just as tragic as Astarion ascending. Like don't get me wrong I enjoy letting a monster do their thing. But it's like this weird double standard where mindflayer Tav's monstrosity is good and cool to idolize and joke about them wanting to eat the brains of their friends but the second someone has fantasies about being Astarion's consort they need to be psychoanalyzed.

And it's also ridiculous that if you even so much as suggest that hey, maybe there's more going on with ascended Astarion than meets the eye, maybe he actually is suffering in his isolation, ect. you get called a delusional idiot because people just really want to believe Astarion is truly a 100% different person from his ascended self when that's simply. not. true. Again the writers have confirmed the ritual didn't consume his soul. The ritual amplified all his worst personality traits that he already had.

I'm not saying you need to love ascended Astarion BUT if you love his character for what he is you should be able to at least appreciate him. You should be able to at least find him tragic and compelling. Kinda annoyed that many fans, who are seemingly uncomfortable with being confronted with this side of him, would rather turn him into a big joke or reduce his full spectrum of emotion to just "smug apathy."