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I'm not an English-speaking person, but I tried my best with an translator DeepL.

Thank you for your post, you are right and I feel similar feelings.

It feels like there's a kind of boiling point right now. And a weird witch hunt. There's even a need for a safe space. I see a lot of comments and I myself 5 days ago got involved in an argument where I didn't want to be heard and that of course upset me and spoiled my fun. But such thoughts are unnecessary, it's a new experience, realized something - yep, got it. And that's it. It shouldn't penetrate in feelings and affect internally. It's too much of an honor for strangers. Enjoy it no matter what!

I adore dark fantasy and Ascended Astarion with his love-obsession as befits vampires.

The problem is that reasoning about it not from a "you corrupted his soul", "he lost himself", "Cazador 2", "circle of abjuse" perspective and doing it not as fanfic and headcanon, but theory and discussion about canon seems taboo.

The vampire spawn has no soul, and neither does the lord. (if you think like that, then why would a spawn have a soul? There is no information in the canon about the souls of Vampire/spawn) He has always hungered for power. Cazador - it's a pity he's such a bad-cartoon villain. Then all Vampire Lords are Cazador's, but they're not, they have their own personalities, some like torture, some like art, some like both. They are lawfully evil, (love sins), vampire spawns are neutral-evil. Circle of Abuse - This is dark fantasy set in the dangerous Middle Ages, and we're looking at a vampire spawn and a vampire lord. Psychological terms applied to humans are a bit redundant here, in my opinion. To take a funny example: it's not like we're considering Lucifer and that he rebelled against his father as a troubled adolescent. I prefer philosophical terms.

This is where the fire starts.

The desire for power and its influence is a philosophical topic. So there's probably no definitive answer.

Someone wants to be Caesar.

Some are good at it.

I don't think Astarion would refuse the free, gratifying (with no sacrifice and no evil, or let's say the only sacrifices are frogs) power of owning everything, in any of the acts, in the epilogue and ever-ever.

Astarion understands it very well, even with his new powers he's going to do everything from the shadows. He's not limited to anything now though. In his POV ending he understands the beating heart of Baldur's Gate, its political powers.

As a mortal elf he chose a career of power, a magistrate.

I think he was trying really hard to bang Baldur's Gate. Too bad, fortune has hit him in the nose. But now…

Speaking of Yandere-Astarion, which doesn't let go Tav - for me it was one of the urges to download the game. That's what everyone is so afraid of, even though this thing is many years old in art.

I love for example the aria PAPAGENO, by Mozart, especially the part:

"As the birdcatcher I am known

by old and young throughout the land.

I wish I had a trap for girls -

I'd catch them by the dozen then.

I'd keep them in a cage at home,

and all the girls would be mine alone.

1791 Savage.

And it's true that quite a lot of people just shame others and can't stand the topic when you don't even say a about spawn. And if we talk about the character as a whole, Astarion is immoral (as Neil said in the article), traditionally evil and selfish vampire spawn (which is innately described in DnD 3.5) and was twisted even as a mortal elf (BG3 Digital Deluxe Artbook). Many like to blame this on trauma and that he has a great personality.

Point: Astarion is an onion. (and this onion is very rogue) Layered. It's a character of gray or even dark gray morality.

If you're annoyed by ambitious theories and differing, loving views based on quotes from the game's canon in relation to Ascended Astarion, and you want to write moralizing about how bad and loveless Ascended Astarion is - Dark Fantasy isn't your cup of tea, it seems, don't try to drink it.

I don't think the Ascension is the loss of his self. I see it as the apotheosis of his desires and really want to lay the dangerous world of goddamn Faerun at his feet.

The book with information about the bride: Van Richten's Guide to Vampires, it's DnD 2e

BG3 has DnD 5e rules and even from there not everything is taken. I think DnD editions are sort of receivers of each other in terms of lore, there gameplay rules change, but the basic monster descriptions remain. Meanwhile, the writers are inspired by something and it's even one huge lore.

The theory about the Spawn Bride is magnificent. It's a brilliant. That opens up a ton of possibilities. We can quarrel with Astarion and he'll try to catch us all over Faerun (that would be fun) or we can enjoy his predatory love, dancing in the sky above Baldur's Gate while he makes on a dress made of mist. Or both, when we're reconciled. Vampire love is passionate chaos. I want Larian to confirm the bride theory incredibly badly. Please, pretty please.

We need to talk about the war of Spawn/Ascended ending fans & the nature of what is "correct" in BG3.

I have been researching and thinking it though and reached a little epiphany after watching this little clip from SteelySam where he makes a very good point that I think a lot of people need to keep in mind when they engage in active wars for "what ending is better" (Spawn or Ascended Astarion debate, especially) or just generally being toxic towards people selecting a route/ending they think is "wrong".

The point is - DND may have its rules, but a DM is the one that enforces these rules, and it is up to them how the events will play out: they can follow the rules (like saying all vampires have to be evil-aligned because "rules are rules") or they can bend these rules or ignore them, if they wish to (this is something that even Larian did, because according to rules of DND vampires should theoretically have no souls, so using Cazador as another sacrifice to Mephistopheles would not have worked).

In BG3 - Larian acts as our DM master. They created a story, with its own limitations, its own rules - essentially a huge DND campaign - but still allowing you - a player - to make different choices that will affect the plot and the future of characters.

But here is the thing - after the events of BG3 YOU are the "DM" now and you can roleplay and create whatever rules and future you want to. You don't HAVE to have one, limited view on how the events will play out because after BG3 ended it is all YOUR story and you are not bound to anyone to tell you what will happen next. This, I believe, is also the reason why Larian cut off the epilogue with "what happened next" segments because that way things remain more open-ended, allowing you to decide what will happen with characters in the future.

For instance, take the argument that is so close to my heart - Astarion's endings.

Those that pick a "good ending" for him obviously have their own vision of things, and think that "the ritual corrupts him", "he no longer has a soul or loves us", "he will continue the cycle of abuse" and can cherry pick some scenes or lore pieces from the game (if there are any) and will try to convince you that you can never have any future with Ascended Astarion etc but all this is a single, limited worldview that does not have to be YOUR canon or the "only truth".

Those that want to point out the devnotes about "Ascended Astarion no longer loves you, he manipulates you etc" I again repeat the same points as I did above - this is how Larian may see things, their rules, but you don't have to follow these rules if you want to change something for your story and how things will play out in the future - you are the "DM" after BG3 and you can shape the world as much as you want.

If you want to "embrace the devnotes" and believe that Ascended Astarion no longer loves you - you can.

But you also can ignore these devnotes and accept that you will have a happy end with Ascended.

Same thing with Spawn - some may accept the reality of their Mayfly-December romance and decide to roleplay that their MC will die and Astarion will keep living, others can indeed find a way to cure him and you will live as mortals. Maybe you even find a way for him to walk in the sun and for you to become ageless/immortal (there are many options to extend your lifespan in DND, starting with Wish and Clone spell to something like immortality ring or some potions) - you can make all this a canon because it's your story now - there is no one and nothing that tells you you can't change some of these rules to fit your story.

So what I want to say - no need for the endless preachings and bullying from either sides of the Astarion issue (Spawnstarians will bully you and shower you with moral preachings about how you corrupt and reduce him to a sex object if you pick this route, or those that select Ascendant and act like this is the only way for him to ever be free and for your romance to be eternal).

At the end of the day - the entire nature and great thing about DND is in the flexibility - you are free to play and shape this world however you please. There are some rules, sure and most of them do need to be followed for the sake of logic and canon (like creature's lifespans, the alignment of gods, like saying Bhaal or Shar always have to be evil-aligned or Selune has to be good-aligned etc) but you can still bend some of the less strict rules.

Examples:

All Mindflayers are evil-aligned rule - Yes, we see that almost all mindflayers in BG3 are evil-aligned, but what about Omeluum? Would you classify him as evil? Is he this cruel, manipulative creature with no remorse? What about if you turn someone like Karlach into a mindflayer - would you say that she is pure evil now? It's clear that Larian worked around this rule about mindflayers for the sake of the story.

Vampires don't have souls rule - If we stick with that rule than a) the Cazador ritual makes no sense because Spawns are also vampires and should theoretically have no soul (Astarion included) b) using Cazador in the ritual wouldn't have worked because he is not merely a Spawn but a true vampire. Another rule Larian ignored for the sake of the story.

Vampires can't feel love rule - this is something that Spawnstarians like to throw in the face of those who chose Ascendant ending. "He no longer loves Tav, he now manipulates you and uses you the way Cazador did and your love is dead because true vampires feel no love." Well, then, check out the Van Richten's Guide to Vampires book - it's also DND canon and it has this little piece where a true vampire does admit that he loved his partner:

So if you want to argue that AAstarion feels no love, what about this little piece then? Doesn't it directly go against that claim? That's what I'm trying to say - this world is not set in stone, it is more like a clay: you have a piece of clay with its structure, and you then can use it to shape the story however you want. Some rules can be overlooked for the sake of story, and what Larian writers have added in the devnotes can also be dropped if you want it for your future story.

Please consider applying this logic the next time you want to preach to someone or fight about which Astarion ending (or anything else, really) is better, because:

1) everyone has their own vision of what is better for a character;

2) once the game is done everyone can roleplay however they want, so you thinking that "Astarion no longer cares for your MC if you let him Ascend" is only a one vision. If I, or someone else, wants to ignore the devnotes about AAstarion, they easily can.

It's toxic and unpleasant having to fight each other over "which choice is right" because there is NO right choice: you can roleplay that your Spawn ending would be tragic and Astarion really WILL regret not getting the power, or you can canon that you lived happily for eternity.

You can make it a canon that AAstarion will be abusive and Cazador 2.0 or that he will actually go against the nature of true vampires after he gets used to his new powers and with a positive influence from friends and his lover. He could become anti-Strahd or anti-Cazador, who's to say it's not possible?

The possibilities are endless, which makes BG3 a heaven for writers.

So if you've chosen a controversial route - like I did with AAstarion - don't be discouraged or peer pressured into thinking that you "made a bad choice, your romance is dead now" (which for a time discouraged me from romancing Astarion ever again, because I just didn't know what to do with his ending as both of them seemed tragic and hopeless) - and realize that with some fantasy you can easily make this romance work, or anything else, really. If you want for AAstarion to truly love your MC - you can make it a canon regardless of how others look at it or even if "the devnotes hint otherwise". If you want to imagine that Karlach returned to Avernus and you can then find a way to fix her heart so you can return to Faerun - it can be a canon. If you want Gale to actually succeed at fixing a crown and becoming a new god - you can make it a canon in your continuation of the story.

No one is stopping you from creating your perfect world, and everyone CAN have a happy ending regardless of the route they choose. That is the beauty of the DND and BG3 as a game.

I mean Astarion in love is completely wild, it seems.

The character of Astarion is inspired by: "the libertines of the eighteenth century" (artbook).

Libertinism (libertines) is described as an extreme form of hedonism. A libertine is a person devoid of most moral principles, a sense of responsibility, and sexual restraints. Mariquise de Sade, Don Giovanni, stands out among them when it comes to sexuality.

The description of Astarion in the artbook is: Dangerous and decadent.

Decadent - having or exhibiting low standards, especially moral standards, interested only in pleasures and enjoyment rather than serious things.

There's a strange confusion with Character Sheets. Where he's a courtesan, and not a charlatan as he is now. And he's got an old outfit.

But the quote from Digital Deluxe Artbook - id EA time, my bad. Well, What the character is inspired by is also important, no, is he 90% rewritten? I don't think so.

He's a pretty sexy character in his own right. (huh) \Oh, yeah, remember I misunderstood. Silly-horny-lama-uwu. I remind you the character was written by Stephen Rooney. In all seriousness Welch has some sort of problem of her own and blaming her won't give us anything and it was a leak. It's just that her words gave the toxic-moral-fans the superiority - which is sad. But things seems (?) to be getting calmer already\

Asration's idea of freedom extends to love. It's normal, as if a trauma caused him to have to fully lose his horny-thing. Stephen said he didn't want just "the prism of trauma", it's a part, Astarion complex and layered, like a real person. Especially vampirism should affect all that, he's a vampire for a reason. To me, vampirism is like a hint that the character is more prone to sins. But it's not black&white, since BG3 likes gray morality. Also, I think since Astarion is very Astarion, this thing of not just freedom but "do what the hell I want", permissiveness, could be dangerous and destructive on many levels.

I hate the statement of one writer that we perceive Astarion as a sexual object.

She is not even his writer, but with her statement she confused people and now many people think she is "Astarion's writer". A mistake, she is a Durge's writer. She has been working with Larian for about a year, and the game was created for 6 years, her opinion is not particularly weighty.

Personally, I'm not interested in sex at all, but especially in the game. If it were possible to start a romance without sex, I would be happy. But I don't like "equal" relationships, I like the dynamics of relationships when one character leads and the other follows them. There should always be a leader and I don't like when the leader is my character.

For me, Ascended Astarion is a leader.

It 's a shame when a complete stranger makes some judgments about me and my impressions of the character, just because she works as a Larian's writer. It's terribly rude.

'You misunderstand the character'. Well, everyone understands the character based on their life experience and gameplay. Be prepared that everyone understands the character in their own way and this is not a mistake or misunderstanding.

If she perceives character as a sexual object, then these are her personal problems.

Exactly, maybe that's why it made me so uncomfortable, I came to Dark Fantasy for the hard moral questions, the bold and the weird, now it's like I'm back in middle school. Ascension fans, in the fandom right now it's probably like a clumsy, kiddo, weird and silly, who gets the least sweets. Everything he says is either a lie, delusion or ridiculous, and the others know better. It's just better to keep quiet unless it's fanfic&headcanon, because you're too weirdo for serious topics, theories, opinions and other points of view. If he dares to say anything against them, everyone loudly snided in the company or push him around and laughing behind his back at his weirdness and how he doesn't understand things.

I've decided for myself kiddo needs to be kind and civil, since we're strange llamas, once someone will take pity on us and listen to our weird thing like something serious.

"Newbon and Larian Studios writer Stephen Rooney didn't want Astarion to be interpreted as simply the 'traumatized' character, Newbon said. They wanted him to be as complex and layered as a real person. Trauma was simply one part of his story, yet it informed many of his behaviors" (my opinion: if I were to say straight out that this interpretation of my writing is... too much even in a whisper - it would be a scream "look different") A weird thing for example, Ascension is Apotheosis of Astarion's True Evil qualities, that were always with him. Kind of revealing his darkness in blood, but it's still him and there's even some good because he's not evil-sphere of evil in a very-bad cartoon. (I'm looking at you, Cazador. Mr., "a cut upper city, cut plot and a potential ally") It's not black&white in this world, no matter what we're talking about.

An arc of power relinquishment and redemption would be too, I think. Just much, much deeper. Some people didn't see arc at all, though, in EA. Only Stephen Rooney can say that, but it's the essence of art to decide for yourself, so the author won't say it, he's neutral. Unless, of course, Larian gives Stephen something to write, then yes, and we'll just learn more. The tragedy of man's sins and temptations. The tragedy of fear, desire, power, ambition, freedom. Even permissiveness. A story of evil, punishment and mercy. And a comedy, too. Because Ast written as evil-funny trickster.

Tragicomic its complex layered character in the Dark and Dangerous world of Fantasy.

Dark fantasy gives space for a fresh, bold, wild, edgy, multi-moral idea.

Of course, it's a weird thing but just-- yeah, I think it's a new headcanon, yeah, I'll go to home. I'm sorry it took so long-- I just-- Thanks for listening. *timidly and awkwardly going home*

"Ascended astarion girlies are trying to shove him down our throat"

The top posts in the ascended astarion tag are all about how the ascended ending is bad, most of them with thousands of notes. The opinion that asc!astarion is tragically continuing the cycle of abuse and will do so to Tav is the overwhelming majority.

In fact, several of those posts with thousands of notes, are directly mocking people who believe otherwise.

What, exactly, is the problem if a handful of people disagree? Let's say they're wrong - who cares? He's pixels. He doesn't matter. If they believe he still loves them...good for them? The writers, VAs, and the fandom as a whole overwhelmingly believe what you do but you want so badly to feel smarter than someone and have someone to bully that you have to bother a tiny handful of people who characterize him the ~wrong way~.

Not to mention that even the peiple who like him the ~right way~ have to put up with daily posts about how its fine to find him hot but you /are/ obiectifying this poor...fictional man? And have to self flagellate daily to prove they aren't Like Those Other Fans

Which, ironically, feels like an actually degrading situation instead of just people romanticizing a bad ending.

Just absolute peaked as a middle school bully behavior.

Lol, yeah.

Ascended Astarion looks very confident. Such a thing, he's still that Astarion. He just got that intoxicating power, what does he do right away? Immediately I parry: yup, "lost his soul", he actually became ALIVE again by contract, there was nothing about his soul, only about the souls of the 7k spawns. Hell knows what Ascension is, Larian give a lore.

So, what's the first thing he does? Wants to make Tav his.

Why, so soon, so fast, what's the rush? We're already in a relationship, she helped him. He's afraid. That she'll leave. He wants to handle it right now. This dude's not only ascended, he's become a controlling yandere. No wonder Tav the first person he's ever cared about in his entire life. I was surprised we could even be broken up after that. If we're without the tadpole and spawn, then yes "ololol, nope". In the epilogues (which are in the game files, but aren't in the game because there's no upper city and generally EA goes on) he thinks about getting his love back, but pride won't let him.

Or like the "you probably expect me to be able to call on mist and legions" moment, he thinks we expect him to be powerful and tells us to wait until he can understand the language of Night.

Now he's trying to be what he's become, he was a slave for a long time after all, and he's become the powerful vampire of Faerun.

It has this excitement and fragility. If the novel were to be deepened, I'd like to say: I love Mist of course, but I love you more, take your time, Mr. "on your knees and be mine quickly."

I think taking away the sun and dependency is a bit harsh rhetoric. I can see why it might hurt spwan fans. But a lot of them are so pushy…. Like, we don't have "failure", that's what we need to kinda catch it. Stephen Rooney the author of Astarion calls the endings "Evil" and "Good", whichever way you choose, the villain or you're the hero. But since BG3 loves all gray, there's a lot of different things going on here. Personally though I'm a hard Asc because I've been pushed. To me the most logical and good style is to not ascend Astarion and kill the spawns. Not ascend because that kind of power shouldn't belong to anyone. And Astarion is too Astarion. "Who craves power does not deserve it" is a phrase. We this and apparently he's going into power-ecstasy, wanting control, especially over the only loved one in his life. I as soon as I saw him on the beach and he said his name "UwU, if he falls in love, that love will be very deep, wild and forever". So his obsession is not a surprise to me. That's how it was for me. (But some people get scared, it's ok, just don't push) Me like: okay. \meme voice\ About the spawn. Seriously 7k medieval, bloodthirsty guys, btw there are gnomes living in the underdark. One crazy spawn can kill a lot of people. No, no, no. I think it's dangerous. Not in my game.

Maybe this is just me, but I can't but feel that the people who say that ascended Astarion will surely turn horrid and abusive towards Tav somewhere down the line, have very little faith in him.

It's not like the ritual swapped him with an asshole doppelganger, he's still the same Astarion who confessed to you in act. 2 and who has made it very clear that he wants safety for the both of you.

Will that power warp that into him being overprotective and possessive? More than likely.

Is it better to take away the sun from him and leave him extremely dependent on you for safety instead? I personally don't think so, but I am also biased in this regard.

In the end, neither route is gonna give you the "perfect happy ending"

Just... Have some faith in the man, he's earned that much 🖤

~ Aeterna Amantes ~

I'm glad someone actually wants a civilized discussion on the Asc topic. Thank you.

Seeing as what it's really about Ascension we know solely from the game.

Lore BG3 was written partially according to DnD5 rules How it relates to the Vampire Lord rules from DnD 5 is unknown.

However, Astarion as Lord behaves very similarly.

That's what offends me as an Asc-enjoyer. There is no line in the game that says Asc = loss of soul. Why is that? Isn't 7k souls the price of power and "being alive" again.

So, I don't think he lost his soul. (its huge free-wheeling intrappropriation of fandom) And in general, according to D&D lore, if you lose your soul, you will become a zombie, as far as I know. It's a huge thing. I don't know about his feelings, because he is a new creature, but he is similar to Lord Vampire from DnD5. \And spawns aren't buns by these rules either and that's okay\ Yeah, and Astarion as a spawn also called Tav pet, I felt a hint of possessiveness from him. One of the reasons I chose him :D

Asc-enjoying seeing love-obsession. It's a dark romance, so that's fine. Tav are after all the first single person in his life he cared about, of course he got the power and wants to own completely, dearest to him. A lot of delulu stuff and black and white, but why would they write a not-love, then love-obsession between two villains for the plot. Or one villain and just Tav-do-with-me-everything. Love-obsession isn't for everyone, of course, Minthara isn't for everyone either (well what's the fever).

I'd talk more about this dark love thing. And the dark side of Astarion. But you asked more about lore and how vampires and ascension work.

Astarion says he's he feels alive and changed - How? - I want nuggets.

Here line: Player: Has your body changed? Astarion: Everything has changed. *monologue of a satisfied villain how it's cool to be powerful*

Player: Are you bound to Mephistopheles? Astarion: Mephistopheles has made a new monster, not bound a creature to his will. The Rite was honoured, the sacrifice is over.

Player: You have seemed distant since the ritual. Astarion: Have I? It's possible. I think my instincts have become so quick that the world around me can't catch up.

Astarion: Everything is moving at a grinding pace. I feel like I will live thousands of hours every day. Astarion: Everything lies ahead. I can see my path to a waking dream.

If we follow DnD 5 rules about vampire feelings. Maybe we can learn more about these guys in DnD 2. Van Richten's Guide to Vampires and the history of Strahd Von Zarovich. There's a gray color.

I dare to get the Grayest quote of all from a book you can find on the internet: Sometimes, however, the emotion may be close to what mortals classify as love.

So vampires in DnD are able to have near-mortal emotions. Even the vampire hunter recognized that.

That's why people like the bride theory, it's still a very dark romance (some people like that), there's just more detail.

Logically, the evil-sphere of evil is boring and a bad cartoon.

Some things are transferred over from editions to editions. Like about "neutrally evil" vampire spawn from DnD 3.5 to DnD 5. Just who knows if it works in BG3 and how its canon. Especially the Ascended One.

I think what's going on with Astarion is a chaotic, aggressive love-obsession. He's also proud and narcissistic.

Larian greedy. He didn't even add vampire lore to the game itself, how spawns are turned, nothing. Just, "see pale dude, red eye, don't let him in the house." More papers. There is so little about ascension. We kind of write letters to have lore added to the game or new artbook.

About the mist. I think he's planning to start an army of spawn (?). I don't get it, Astarion is smart, but he's a goose. It's good that we have the option to travel, see the world and just chill.

I think he wants to conquer the world. To get more safety. And control everything around him. (besides he just likes it. being a spawn after a canceled ritual he's interested in the idea of being a spawn leader)

Because this world is cruel and dangerous. I think His edginess right.

It's Dark Fantasy.

94Tav is more toxic than Asc (in my opinion)

Differing opinions are very important. Bad English, sorry. I hope you learned something helpful. To anyone who wants to-- push: I won't get into a discussion, I'm sure of my opinion. I didn't say anything was canon, except obviously quotes from the game. These are my thoughts, my interpretation. I don't like being pushed by anyone but Astarion. Agree to disagree.

I'm not

Tryna make discourse here

But I'm curious about Ascended Astarion. All evidence I can see points to the fact that his love for you dies and warps into possession, obsession. Like you're his favorite pet, and not an equal or a partner or even really a person

But I've seen some fans of ascended Astarion state that they believe he does love you, he's just blinded by his new powers and will mellow out in a bit.

I wanted to point out how spawn Astarion speaks about loving being in the sun,

But ascended Astarion, who CAN walk in the sun, speaks about wanting to blot it out completely and plunge the world into darkness

Spawn Astarion says he wants to be equals with you at his grave scene

Ascended Astarion breaks up with you if you do not agree to become his spawn, and, if you DO agree, he believes you are degrading yourself.

I understand that there's a wealth of ways to interpret things, but I haven't seen any evidence of Ascended Astarion having.... How can I explain my feelings here...

He seems to me to have lost his soul and his ability to love. I see the desire for power, control, safety, possession. Obsession. But I don't see love, or affection beyond "obey me and you will be my most treasured possession"

Again, please, no hating on one route or the other I'm looking for legit like, literary analysis of the scenes we have been given for evidence. I'm even trying to refrain from pointing out too much my own opinions based on what I've seen to some degree so I don't overly colour this post while asking for more info, I get I've said a few things already that may colour it but I really am, without judgement, asking for your genuine perspective. I'm not gonna rant hard on the negative and then say "prove me wrong" I GENUINELY would like to learn more cause I recognize I may have missed an angle here? Also

Question: is Ascended Astarion a full vampire, as well as "the vampire ascendant" like is he a true vampire? Or is " the vampire acendant" a different kind of creature than a full vampire since he did not drink the blood of his master? Do we have any in game or canon explanations?

I'm curious! Help me

I totally agree. Amazing Thank you <3

I'm not

Tryna make discourse here

But I'm curious about Ascended Astarion. All evidence I can see points to the fact that his love for you dies and warps into possession, obsession. Like you're his favorite pet, and not an equal or a partner or even really a person

But I've seen some fans of ascended Astarion state that they believe he does love you, he's just blinded by his new powers and will mellow out in a bit.

I wanted to point out how spawn Astarion speaks about loving being in the sun,

But ascended Astarion, who CAN walk in the sun, speaks about wanting to blot it out completely and plunge the world into darkness

Spawn Astarion says he wants to be equals with you at his grave scene

Ascended Astarion breaks up with you if you do not agree to become his spawn, and, if you DO agree, he believes you are degrading yourself.

I understand that there's a wealth of ways to interpret things, but I haven't seen any evidence of Ascended Astarion having.... How can I explain my feelings here...

He seems to me to have lost his soul and his ability to love. I see the desire for power, control, safety, possession. Obsession. But I don't see love, or affection beyond "obey me and you will be my most treasured possession"

Again, please, no hating on one route or the other I'm looking for legit like, literary analysis of the scenes we have been given for evidence. I'm even trying to refrain from pointing out too much my own opinions based on what I've seen to some degree so I don't overly colour this post while asking for more info, I get I've said a few things already that may colour it but I really am, without judgement, asking for your genuine perspective. I'm not gonna rant hard on the negative and then say "prove me wrong" I GENUINELY would like to learn more cause I recognize I may have missed an angle here? Also

Question: is Ascended Astarion a full vampire, as well as "the vampire ascendant" like is he a true vampire? Or is " the vampire acendant" a different kind of creature than a full vampire since he did not drink the blood of his master? Do we have any in game or canon explanations?

I'm curious! Help me

I was just writing how I see it all for one person. Sorry for the bad English I hope it will be understandable.

Tav a spawn for sure. How regular let's find out.

He gave the Tav one drop of blood, it's italicized in the game and script. Maybe that's why Tav didn't burn in the sun after the final battle.

He extended Mythistophilus' blessing to Tav. With the help of a drop (Or EA goes on. Larian didn't add the scene of Tav-spawn burning in the sun (?!) I don't think so).

So, my reasoning is that he did give One Drop his Blood.

BG3 was written partly according to the rules of DnD 5.

Some knowledge is transferred over from edition to edition. Like "neutral-evil" in vampire spawn from DnD 3.5 to DnD 5. Not to mention that the author could be inspired by really general all lore about vampires in DnD.

The other thing is that if the Master Vampire allows you to drink blood, the spawn becomes a Full Vampire according to DnD rules and that's what Astarion is talking about. But that didn't happen to Tav. Let's find out why. We don't have detailed information about Ascension, about how much DnD 5 Vampire Lord rules work together with Ascension. Not about the blood of the Ascended Astarion.

The game accurately shows two kinds of turning into spawns differently in the game.

What are the types of vampire turning in DnD in general?

It's important to remember that until this lore is added to BG3 on pieces of paper in dusty corners, it's theory.

In the DnD 2 book Van Richten's Guide to Vampires (I suggest you find it on the internet, it's a nice book), the spawn concept we have now is called "Fledgling vampire". There are similar and different things. Similar, it describes the concept of Master Vampire using Fledgling to bring him food. The most important difference: Fledgling doesn't need blood. They're just weak vampires, it seems. If their Master dies, they just go about their business. Though some even avenge their Master's death. Similar: Regular Fledgling - by nature inclined to obey the Master.

But that's not the case with the bride.  To create a bride, a vampire must be given his own blood. She has free will, but the Master often hides things and wants to control her (freaking yandere), but if they're not so yandere, they tell and they're like bro-friends, the Evil Invincible Couple (the important thing is not to fight).

So, in the book, the vampire bride is called Fledgling vampire too. It's just an unusual kind of Fledgling.

In the book, turning requires more blood than a drop. But here's the thing: Lore has been partially adapted. There are differences between spawns based on the lore from the books and the game, like climbing walls. But in BG3, they're still spawns. There are differences, like the amount of blood. There are similarities, like the pleasure of turning.

That's why there's this theory exist. Well, there's also a lot of vampire lore in DnD and the details are cool.

There's also dialog when he says that Tav and him can drink each other's blood. That's weird. When we ask for it, he says he has a headache, not today? And so on until the sun melts. Why would he lie if he's already in complete control of Tav? He could say it straight out. My Tav is okay with all of this, anyway.

I think there are two versions:

- Ascended Astarion gave a drop of Tav's blood, so it doesn't burn in the sun. He's so ~Ascended~  and was able to keep the power of the blood from turning Tav into a full vampire and make it all process pleasant to her. He could let the spawn drink his blood and not make them Full Vampire because ~Ascended~.

- He made Tav his bride and one drop was enough because ~Ascension~, and extending Mithistowl's blessing is another bonus.

In both, Astarion gave Tav his own blood. I'm adamant about that.

Larian added little lore about vampires to the game. There is also little about the Ascension.

i kinda lean toward the idea that ascended astarion made a spouse when he turned tav cause of the whole "your father's army is an excellent dowry" in the durge run

and for such a big choice in ascended!astarion's romance, you'd think larian would have included the eye color change as they had done it when auntie ethel or volo messed around with tav's eyes, which kinda has me kinda convinced that tav is no ordinary spawn

the process in creating a spawn is different from what astarion did to tav (I think I recall him saying smth like "just as you were close to death I gave you some of my blood") whereas astarion had been drained of his blood by cazador, then buried then rose from his grave as a vampire spawn

maybe it was still bc he wanted to have more control over tav or maybe it was because he meant it when he said you'd be ruling together, whatever the case may be, I believe tav is not just any spawn

So true. I choose negative options to get a thrill of yandere thing and out of curiosity. Good thing there's an F5 button. I love and prefer the path of the happy decadent villain Tav in love with Lord Astarion.

I finally saw all Astarion endings and I'm a little upset we can't kiss him. I think the gentle hug not for AA, but a passionate kiss yes.

However, I was even more offended by the people who wrote about the "freedom" option. I am scared of these "players" because they do not understand how roleplay games works….

The game implies different outcomes and if you choose this one, then you are doing well, the other one is bad for you, and so on. Bad and good outcomes DO NOT OCCUR AT THE SAME TIME.

When you choose the option of "freedom", it is obviously a bad outcome BECAUSE YOU HAVE CHOSEN IT. YOU HAVE CHOSEN FOR YOUR CHARACTER TO BE UNHAPPY. You choose "I'm unhappy" and then selflessly say, "look, he makes them unhappy".

However, if you choose a different answer, for example, "It is wonderful. Im glad I get to share this with you". So everything is fine with you and it was fine before in these 6 months too. The options do not exist at the same time. You can't have everything terrible and wonderful at the same time. Whether your character is happy or not is up to YOU. Whether this is a good end or not, everyone decides for themself by choosing a certain option.

I hate all people who use the question of freedom AS the MAIN or most canonical scenario. NO, everything can be fine with them, I do not know why you are reducing everything to one option. You literally don't understand the meaning of the word "role-playing game". I saw someone say, "the developers are hinting to you what will happen next." yes? Because judging by the answer I'm planning to choose, they're going to be fucking great. How about that? They're going to be unstoppable, damn it.

Not Larian, Welch. She is not the author of Astarion. I don't know how much you know about this.

She write another character and helped write part of the novel, and after the Ascension. (cough)

Stephen Rooney author of Astarion.

He is a very neutral author and that's good.

He called the end good or evil, I think depending on whether we play a hero or a villain. (and Bg3 lovers grey color, evil can be little god, and good can be complex)

Dictate how who understood art/ history sounds like.. strange to say the least. The point of art is to decide for yourself, to think, especially in an rpg. And when you are not the author of the character it sounds like a scandal. She used the: "sexualize = misunderstood = bad" to a completely different game. It was a leak of her private chat. She clearly has some personal problems. Even though I'm furiously annoyed... Well, she has problems. And now some fans are using her words in a storm of discord to show how rightly they love this character and give them the moral high ground to corner and snide over fans who choose to play the villain. And fans who like dark, complex (not black&white) stuff, differently deep and dark edgy novels.

Larian: To ascend Astarion is to reduce the relationship to a kink/sex object.

My ace ass: *stares in asexual* ... ... ... You... made it to where there was only one way to romance him... I HAD to sleep with him JUST to trigger a romantic relationship... I couldn't just show him I cared and wanted to protect him and have something blossom over the course of two acts, showing him that he didn't have to use his body to get what he needed... I only get a friendship situation instead of a slowburn romance that I'd normally go for. I role-played around my norm because I wanted a tender story between him and my character and have to pretend a slowburn is possible when not canon in-game. And your answer is this when I decide to ascend him because it makes sense not to annihilate Baldur's Gate with 7,000 bloodthirsty spawn and wanting Astarion to walk in the sun, to feel alive again and safe... ... ... right. I'm the one who wanted to reduce him to a sex object when I want the exact opposite otherwise. There could be no other reason to ascend him storywise.

I understand where Larian is coming from since I'm a minority, but seriously? There are people out there who didn't ascend Astarion only because it was "hot". Did they forget that they gave legitimate reasons to ascend him in a game WITH CONSEQUENCES? The first time you play, unless you spoiled yourself, you had no way of knowing what could happen either way.

He said in the epilogue that Tav complements him and the power would be nothing without them. And if we break up, he says he misses them. That dynamic of a villain who is sad with a throne without love. There are many vampire lords in Faerun. They're pretty lonely, probably. I think they have information about each other. They don't know that Astarion is ascended, he says he's not going to reveal his cards. But they'll definitely know about Tav. If Tav is do love-obsession with him, like a couple of two madly in love. Some lordly fellows will be jealous as hell (vampires are greedy)... And most importantly, they will know or guess: Tav is his weak spot. If someone kills her, I fear what Astarion will do. Heaven won't help.

head: Tav wounded, not fatally, which of his opponents to declare war. That would be a serious concern.

He's going to have to take this fight carefully from the shadows, torture whoever tried to kill Tav, get information.

I'd like to see how he handles his temper. And ferocity. And we've all seen Astarion he looks so elegant and fun bat. But to his enemies, he's a dragon.

*NEW HEADCANON*

So now that we have seen the epilogue for Acendand Astarion, what new headcanons have come to your mind? Let's share them!

-He has extended all the other blessings from the ritual to you by giving you more drops of his blood every now and then( dont want to get risky of driving you mad), which allows you to continue to live your normal life enjoying the sun, food, reflection, everything!

One day, you discover that "enjoying the luxuries of the living" includes some consequences if you are not careful, mini vampires are coming! After all, you and Astarion have not stopped to be on each other's arms since the fight with the netherbrain...

Really the point.

Depends on how you play and what you want. It's different lines. AscAstarion doesn't change as an evil character, just his reactions change. His reactions to a certain context. But the thing is: Tav does change. Some Tav has fun with AscAstarion and the game lets you truly play - couple the two villains. But it's a romance, can make a break up or not play the romance.

The thing is, a lot of people compare Lord to Spawn, and analyze which one is wrong and bad and which one is good and right. Right and Wrong. Black and White.

Such words: how to play it right and what's best for the character. The ascension breaks or ruins him. That he wasn't happy being Ascended or that he didn't want it. And I don't think he's pathetic as a Lord, I don't think he's trapped now.

Speaking of trapping… Everyone is trapped in some way in Dark Fantasy where there are many dangers.

I think both endings are nice and it's both written perfectly for Astarion. It's the endings that are both very complicated. He was a vampire spawn, becoming a vampire lord is a completed path of evil. The ascension gives many good things, "being alive", that's why Vampire Lord Cazador wanted it.

Evil characters are complex, if they're the ones that are well-written, they have their own way with gray moral issues. Especially Astarion. I saw his ambitions from the first act and his confidence that he wants to be on top, regardless of Cazador's history. It had an impact, but he has his own personality, too.

It's a character with an incredible amount of layers, he was like that in Act 1, was in EA a… in Ascended, he's not anymore? Ascended is still layered. Not the evil-sphere of evil. Because he's well-written.

I'm so glad that finally someone said the right phrase. Not all characters who remain in a relationship with Ascended Astarion are victims. I've been trying to formulate it somehow, but yes. Here it is. Therefore, if you are not a victim, you will never choose the option of "freedom". God, do you think villains ask about this? No, they just slit his throat, make insidious plans and poison his wine if something doesn't suit them. Although in fact some victims are also capable of creating an ingenious trap, but this is not about them. Our character is not just a "Puppet", but occupies an important position next to Astarion, gives us many opportunities and makes him vulnerable to us.

Nice discussion. Well, I've always called Astarion a "tormented predator". He's a noble of Baldur's Gate, he chose the career of power, and he was a harsh magistrate (it's still in the game, dialog with Wyll). I think of him as more of an evil character. I'm also pretty harsh on him as a character, even though I like him a lot.

I think his vampiric twist is really working in his mind. I think that was the idea, he's even bloodier than a mere mortal bad man, otherwise they could have made him just a human.

Which is added because of Cazador. A greater desire to control everything around him. Control your body, those around you, "don't touch me." His desire for power has tripled. Fear is definitely added, but Astarion is pretty strong, he fights bloody for himself.

His brutality throughout the game, all of it, will never be a mask and facade for me. Together and simultaneously and independently with Cazador's story... It's his true, dark part, part of that evil magistrate, part vampire spawn. Neutral-evil Astarion.

I just see how Astarion besides practical desires and the desire to preserve himself (neutrality), he have fun, enjoys power, controlling the minds of others, blood and violence - That part of his inner evil.

I like watching his true dark desires and path of evil better.

Lord Astarion. He has no limits, he does what he wants. It's not clear how Ascension affects DnD5's True Vampirism. The Ascension is the apophysis of his evil desires and their continuation. He's evil and I think chaotic.

I'm enchanted actually by the idea of how he thinks, and his ambition, his chaotic, often dark, force of intellect and spirit, in any ending and before the story begins. How he searches for a means to the sun, studying ancient manuscripts. How he's a Lord, studying Faerun politics, there's a line in the original that he knows how the heart of Baldur's Gate beats, talking to foreign ambassadors.

This is a big topic for my poor English.

I love Astarion phrase about good and evil. And devnote. The theme of yin and yang, scales.

And she's quite funny, considering Astarion is pretty corrupt anyway and any scales and moral compass will point to "what the hell do I want". And about power, "being kind", too "Even evil people can be a little bit good. And even good or evil people can be a little bit complicated"

After enduring 200 years of torture, starvation, and prostitution under Cazador, Astarion's current identity is known, but his past remains obscured. I wanna do an exploration akin to the "Nature vs Nurture" debate to discern which aspects of his character were shaped by pre-existing elements and which were forged by the traumatic experiences he endured. Of course, due to limited source material, this is all mosrlt interpretation and conjecture.

Before Cazador, Astarion possessed a fully developed personality with thoughts, feelings, and opinions. (And we have to keep in mind his original story was discarded from Clearly Evident Canon beyond the being a Magistrate part) The subsequent 200 years of trauma, compounded by the transformation into a vampire, brought mental and physical alterations. While the specifics of the mental changes are unclear due to the ambiguous rules of Spawn, the undeniable shift included an insatiable blood thirst imposed by his newfound vampiric nature.

Unraveling Astarion's true self involves deciphering what parts of him existed prior to Cazador, (not possible, given source material) what remnants of that man endure, how these aspects have been distorted, and what parts of him ONLY exist as a result of the trauma, and were never a part of the "original" man.

Astarion faces the daunting task of reinventing himself rather than reclaiming his previous identity. This process requires meticulous consideration of every action and emotion to discern what aligns with his core self and what doesn't. The struggle lies in navigating a sense of self that eludes recovery, because he CANNOT view the "old framework" for hints and must instead just try to figure out what feels right when EVERYTHING feels wrong because he is stuck in a cortisol overload and near permanent state of fight-or-flight right until the end of the game.

His own journey within himself aside I wanted to start a chat with fandom:

Considering his character, what original but now warped traits do you sense he retained?

Which traits are likely products of learned behavior or trauma?

As the game concludes, regardless of the path he chooses (Spawn, Ascended, romanced or single) what key feature(s) do you believe define the person he decides to become?

Thank you! And I mistook the exact word you liked, I meant "Apotheosis" ἀποθέωσις, a culmination or climax, apogee. "Apophysis" απόφυση is a rather broad term (most often related to anatomy). It can work if take the meaning: "natural prolongation", of an organism or plant, like small natural spike on the cone scale, the "natural continuation" of dark desires, so.. it still works lol. Two fancy words And that's also the name of the software that you can do fractals in. And fractals are something. A fractal flame rendered with the program Apophysis.

After enduring 200 years of torture, starvation, and prostitution under Cazador, Astarion's current identity is known, but his past remains obscured. I wanna do an exploration akin to the "Nature vs Nurture" debate to discern which aspects of his character were shaped by pre-existing elements and which were forged by the traumatic experiences he endured. Of course, due to limited source material, this is all mosrlt interpretation and conjecture.

Before Cazador, Astarion possessed a fully developed personality with thoughts, feelings, and opinions. (And we have to keep in mind his original story was discarded from Clearly Evident Canon beyond the being a Magistrate part) The subsequent 200 years of trauma, compounded by the transformation into a vampire, brought mental and physical alterations. While the specifics of the mental changes are unclear due to the ambiguous rules of Spawn, the undeniable shift included an insatiable blood thirst imposed by his newfound vampiric nature.

Unraveling Astarion's true self involves deciphering what parts of him existed prior to Cazador, (not possible, given source material) what remnants of that man endure, how these aspects have been distorted, and what parts of him ONLY exist as a result of the trauma, and were never a part of the "original" man.

Astarion faces the daunting task of reinventing himself rather than reclaiming his previous identity. This process requires meticulous consideration of every action and emotion to discern what aligns with his core self and what doesn't. The struggle lies in navigating a sense of self that eludes recovery, because he CANNOT view the "old framework" for hints and must instead just try to figure out what feels right when EVERYTHING feels wrong because he is stuck in a cortisol overload and near permanent state of fight-or-flight right until the end of the game.

His own journey within himself aside I wanted to start a chat with fandom:

Considering his character, what original but now warped traits do you sense he retained?

Which traits are likely products of learned behavior or trauma?

As the game concludes, regardless of the path he chooses (Spawn, Ascended, romanced or single) what key feature(s) do you believe define the person he decides to become?

Geez, I guess it's not all artists, is it? Like, I can imagine they might say asc-stans need to touch the grass, which we're a little offended by. But to take all the positive traits of a character and make another one, while hating the rest (taboo to admit that there is something good in Lord (?) - that's who needs grass. Or it's better to do nothing at all.

In Act 1, Astarion not the best person (to put it mildly). But he's got enough arts, where all his traits are in place, it's him.

I mean, well… I'm fine with AU if someone likes the bat but prefers the spawn path more. It's just that Lorde is the one with the complexity and something nice! It's still Astarion already even said in an interview - and Astarion is complex.

Lord Astarion is pompous, narcissistic, and possessive. His every negative trait is written beautifully and logically. Such was being the magistrate of Baldur's Gate.

Yet Lord Astarion got some interesting and good qualities in him - because Astarion is a complex character, right from the start and in every ending.

Since there is so much prejudice about the Lord on the internet, which the epilogue did a great job of showing. That I've fallen out of love with angst almost completely. Astrion chill Lord Vampire. The dynamic of two villains loving each other obsessively is 100% my cup of tea. The game really lets you play a couple like this.

you know what's frustrating? finding art with bat astarion -> telling artist "thank you for drawing ascended astarion" and hearing back -> "that's not ascended astarion". fandom hates him soooooooo much. they stole his cutest parts, appropriated their version and called it "batstarion" only an ascended astarion can turn into a bat........................................................................................................................................................... ascended astarion can be cute, too..................................

That's exactly how I felt seeing those answers from Tav and hearing him talk about love. People take it too literally. They treat him like he's not the same Astarion anymore. He really wants to be the not-so-Astarion - in his mind, weak and pathetic. He wants to be the Lord that nothing can control. Not even feelings. Astarion is always the trickster. No, the character was written for 3 acts, and then instead of revealing his dark side, his complexity - in a full-blown evil ending it is now "not Astarion" - no soul, lost himself, no feelings, Cazador 2 - The Great Absurd of fandom. He doesn't even have to say anything to Tav is he doesn't care, he doesn't have to offer to "be allies in crime". DnD5 rules and true vampirism - and the feelings of vampires - add complexity to analyze, it's already a more rational position. But what about the Ascension and the "first living" vampire. That could have an impact. Well even vampires are a bit more complicated, according to DnD2 for sure. They have their own feelings. If vampire distortion would have an effect, spawns have it working too. But the discussion about vampirism and its influence - is it worth such attention - when it's already confirmed that it's Astarion himself, still him.

Man, it adds nobility points to Lord Astarion that he realizes the kind of love he's offering - decadence, danger and no turning back. This is where the "degrade yourself" comes from, which is also seen as "you're a doofus, Tav" - no way, geez. That would be dark love. Besides he's still wounded inside from 200 years of suffering. His self-esteem is low. Astarion hasn't lost his complexity with the ritual….

Astarion is still Astarion, and with Tav, who agrees and supports him, he is happy. Without Tav, he's more lonely.

Okay, so what about when Astarion says, after you break up with him after Ascension that he would've twisted your love and that he respects you for your choice? Because to me that reads clear as day.

Heh, alright, let's talk about this.

You can read this convo in three ways:

1 - you read it as it is, that the moment he ascended his love for Tav immediately turned malicious which is... such a braindead take I cannot even comprehend how people completely miss who Astarion is as a person the moment he ascends. He's not a different person, not fully and not entirely. He's changed, but he's not different.

2 - you can read it as Astarion being genuine and I mean that he still says what he means but with no malice behind his words. That he truly thinks that in the long run - he would've "corrupted" Tav and their love for him because he's self aware for only that conversation and suddenly realizes that he's a horrible person now (lol)

or

3 - you can see him as coping. First he yells at Tav and flaunts his power, telling how he could've turned them against their will, how he's better without them, how he doesn't need them. I have issue with the whole post break-up conversation (when you refuse to be his spawn) and about how one sided it is. You either tell him he's Cazador 2 (which is utterly absurd but I won't go into that here) or you tell him that you miss the boy he was before ascension which not only shows that Tav haven't listened to a single thing when Ritual of Profane Ascension was discussed AND has an unhealthy view of this man in the first place. Not to mention that you call him a boy, you know, something Cazador did to demean his manhood and independence? Yeah, that. And then somehow people are surprised when he doesn't respond positively. He's not Gale, he's not going to cry in the corner, not anymore. He's stronger and more powerful than he ever was and he won't let Tav who just abandoned him see that he's hurting.

So why the responses about ruining Tav's love and respecting them for the choice? Timing. First he lashes out and shows his fangs like an animal, showing that it doesn't phase him. Only some long rests later he will talk to you when he's calmer. Do you think he's hurting any less? I don't think so. He's hurting, badly. The only person he ever trusted, loved and truly wanted in his life just up and left him, citing how he's "not the same person" anymore. Telling him that they love him exclusively just for certain traits and habits, that his worth resides only in certain aspects of his state of being. Tav is telling him that when he's afraid, when he's weak and when he's unsure and lost is what they prefer. Does that sound right to you?

So what does Astarion can even say in this moment? He still loves Tav, elves rarely fall out of love or remarry, no way his love faded in a mere matter of a handful of days. He loves them, dearly and he's in pain. And now that his anger is lesser after being initially dumped - he still tries to do right by Tav. He tells Tav all the things they want to hear: that he's awful, a monster, that he would've twisted their love. He takes on this image that Tav projects onto him and he wears it as a badge because he knows he cannot have them back, that's settled, but the least he can do is not make Tav regret their choices, either now or later. For their sake.

(and sorry if I'm forward but I'd also like to hear your thoughts on this @bananasfosterparent if you don't mind!)

EA's backstory: blinking red on the back. The character's own image is as dark as Egypt. I've been in the vampire theme for years too - and I've stopped being surprised by their cruelty and possessiveness. I always try to evaluate characters in a philosophical way, not psychological. Especially I rarely evaluate vampires in psychological terms. Because they are fantastic creatures they have their own rules. It gives you the freedom to think outside the limits of human consciousness and morality.

It's not clear how much DnD5 and vampirism warping work for spawns in BG3. Astarion makes zero effort to fight it anyways. Well, or for Tav's sake, yeah, he's starting to, he's got a "redemption" arc, after all. It has enough "Monster" in it from the beginning. He's not so Louis. Just look at this

Astarion was thinking less liberate, more dominate.

To the Ascended, it shows everything openly, more powerfully. The volcano is awake. Every time someone calls Astarion a monster:

You're not a monster,' I said. But I lied. What I really wanted to say was that a monster is not such a terrible thing to be. From the Latin root monstrum, a divine messenger of catastrophe, then adapted by the Old French to mean an animal of myriad origins: centaur, griffin, satyr. To be a monster is to be a hybrid signal, a lighthouse: both shelter and warning at once.

― Ocean Vuong, On Earth We're Briefly Gorgeous

Thinking about how Astarion constantly blames Cazador for taking things away (the eye color he forgot, the reflection he doesn't have, for turning him into a vampire) but it's like... it was his own choice to become a spawn. He makes it out to be as if he was given no choice - not true. Vampire lore is known in Baldur's Gate and I will assume here (and build on this) that it was known 200 years ago as well. With that logic - Astarion knew perfectly well what becoming a vampire will entail if not what will being a spawn to a vampire lord will.

So no, Cazador didn't take things from Astarion, he gave them up willingly for immortality and then didn't like that Cazador didn't pamper him like a spoiled brat. Vampires are evil aligned in dnd, it's a fact, Astarion must've known that it's not going to be wine and roses if he signs up and yet he still did. What that says about who he was before becoming a spawn? Quite a bit but that's not what I'm talking about here.

Point is - Astarion rarely takes any accountability for being a vampire, for choosing to be a vampire and blames everyone and everything for his own choices. Cazador didn't take away things, Astarion surrendered them. How Astarion is presented to Tav is through a very human lens and that's why he succeeds making people hate Cazador. But I have been fan of vampires since I was a little kid, my perspective is simply this - he is pathetic as a spawn, he rebels after he doesn't like what he himself signed up for and when he gets punished for it he again blames Cazador for doing what a vampire lord just... simply does - manages his spawn to keep them in toe. Yes, Cazador is awful even by vampiric standards but it just shows that he's not a great leader of his coven lol. Maybe he's only this much sadistic because he has no other way to control the spawn. But I digress.

My point is - whole sob story Astarion presents and that so many fans eat right out of his palm is him refusing to take accountability for his own choices. And that's why ascension is something he desires and will achieve if not talked out of by Tav (with a dice roll when helping him right away requires none of that iirc). He wants power and he wants freedom and again, by vampire standards he's just getting what every vampire desires, there's no amorality involved because morals are already shady at best for vampires as a whole. The whole discourse about Astarion ascending or not literally only comes from human houlier-than-thou attitudes and ignoring that yes, Astarion is an awful person from the very beginning. I mean who attacks you with a fucking knife when you have your back turned? Even Lae'zel faces you upfront. Who attacks you in the night for blood instead of talking? His excuse is lame too "oh you would've staked me" and finding him bent over tav's sleeping form with horrible intentions would not lead to that? You even have an option to stake him several times during the whole scene. He's deceptive, manipulative and he will weasel and lie in every interaction to protect himself. He's not your little meow meow or whatever, he's a vampire. And Astarion himself says that he would trust a devil over a vampire any day.

So all the girlies who think Astarion is this cuddly prince that suddenly becomes a monster the moment he's allowed to become who he always was meant to be just get a reality check. He isn't changed, he's just showing his true colors and finally coming into power that he craved for so long (not ascension per se, just power in general and ascension gives him ultimate power). Does he deserve it - that's another matter. But he craves it and needs it. To quote Astarion himself: "Because those with power can do whatever the Hells they want."

And he's right.

Please, people, Astarion wasn't even written as a complete victim. Digital Artbook As far as I know it's " inactual", but it's go with the xbox in physical form. And I want to reason in a different vector. Astarion Decadent and Dangerous Two hundred years ago, Astarion was a corrupt elite of Baldur’s Gate with a taste for power and a hunger for eternal life.

Swen said 3 years ago about Astarion: „A disgraced nobleman who used his position as a local magistrate to serve a vampire clan by feeding them prisoners, he was eventually too corrupt even for them and was effectively sent to serve as the personal slave of a powerful vampire.” Let's omit it, because there's not much about it. But it happened once Artbook only. When a character you have a taste for eternal life - it's already a signal that he's not very heroic. Eternal life - more often than not has a big cost. Astarion was no fool not to realize that. And since he was corrupted - I'm sure he understood it perfectly well. That's why he contacted the vampire clan. And fell very painfully. The game is silent about his past now. (Maybe because Astarion as a magistrate couldn't get realized in the game without the Upper City) But if you start questioning the little vampire you suddenly become… "victim blaming" Heavens, no, not this again. The man is literally immoral, which is what Neil was talking about, too. He sold prisoners in the middle ages of fantasy, they either rotted in prison or awaited execution. But this act is not the kindest thing in the world. It's a dark gray character. You act like a bastard, but there's an even bigger bastard on top of you. And you either 1 - learn the "morally correct" lesson, or 2 - you seek to gain even more power, reinforcing your beliefs that power and strength will allow you to do whatever you want, and no one will dare to make a peep in your way. And 2 does make sense, because to me that's literally the meaning of Dark Fantasy - the dangerous world, the genre itself: an atmosphere of horror and dread. I guess you must to swear on blood that you are considering a character with this information - to say anything other than dogma. If the player wants his castle and power - Astarion approves this in Act 3 successfully too. He's a fictional vampire, you can say about him however you want and from whatever point of view you want.

Astarion was well aware always that power was a fun tool to have. That's why he was a Magistrate, it's still in the game.

We must have ONE evil male character for the "evil path" in this game, who is truly "Evil" in himself (among other things), deep inside, meaning he wants to take power, pleasure and kill on his own. That's Astarion.

Thinking about how Astarion constantly blames Cazador for taking things away (the eye color he forgot, the reflection he doesn't have, for turning him into a vampire) but it's like... it was his own choice to become a spawn. He makes it out to be as if he was given no choice - not true. Vampire lore is known in Baldur's Gate and I will assume here (and build on this) that it was known 200 years ago as well. With that logic - Astarion knew perfectly well what becoming a vampire will entail if not what will being a spawn to a vampire lord will.

So no, Cazador didn't take things from Astarion, he gave them up willingly for immortality and then didn't like that Cazador didn't pamper him like a spoiled brat. Vampires are evil aligned in dnd, it's a fact, Astarion must've known that it's not going to be wine and roses if he signs up and yet he still did. What that says about who he was before becoming a spawn? Quite a bit but that's not what I'm talking about here.

Point is - Astarion rarely takes any accountability for being a vampire, for choosing to be a vampire and blames everyone and everything for his own choices. Cazador didn't take away things, Astarion surrendered them. How Astarion is presented to Tav is through a very human lens and that's why he succeeds making people hate Cazador. But I have been fan of vampires since I was a little kid, my perspective is simply this - he is pathetic as a spawn, he rebels after he doesn't like what he himself signed up for and when he gets punished for it he again blames Cazador for doing what a vampire lord just... simply does - manages his spawn to keep them in toe. Yes, Cazador is awful even by vampiric standards but it just shows that he's not a great leader of his coven lol. Maybe he's only this much sadistic because he has no other way to control the spawn. But I digress.

My point is - whole sob story Astarion presents and that so many fans eat right out of his palm is him refusing to take accountability for his own choices. And that's why ascension is something he desires and will achieve if not talked out of by Tav (with a dice roll when helping him right away requires none of that iirc). He wants power and he wants freedom and again, by vampire standards he's just getting what every vampire desires, there's no amorality involved because morals are already shady at best for vampires as a whole. The whole discourse about Astarion ascending or not literally only comes from human houlier-than-thou attitudes and ignoring that yes, Astarion is an awful person from the very beginning. I mean who attacks you with a fucking knife when you have your back turned? Even Lae'zel faces you upfront. Who attacks you in the night for blood instead of talking? His excuse is lame too "oh you would've staked me" and finding him bent over tav's sleeping form with horrible intentions would not lead to that? You even have an option to stake him several times during the whole scene. He's deceptive, manipulative and he will weasel and lie in every interaction to protect himself. He's not your little meow meow or whatever, he's a vampire. And Astarion himself says that he would trust a devil over a vampire any day.

So all the girlies who think Astarion is this cuddly prince that suddenly becomes a monster the moment he's allowed to become who he always was meant to be just get a reality check. He isn't changed, he's just showing his true colors and finally coming into power that he craved for so long (not ascension per se, just power in general and ascension gives him ultimate power). Does he deserve it - that's another matter. But he craves it and needs it. To quote Astarion himself: "Because those with power can do whatever the Hells they want."

And he's right.

That's why fanon paints Lord Astarion only in angst colors. Forgetting that it's still Astarion, it's confirmed. So he's still chaotic cute and fun. And he's possessive now. I'm sure a little fun with Halsin wouldn't be too much trouble. Tav is his. The fact that Astarion is so intensely interested in Tav only makes it more interesting to me. It's flirting lol, vampire flirting. I'd like more answers for Tav where they can say "Astarion, you were right nothing and no one can change that". He'll purr like a cat, I think.

If Astarion didn't allow Tav to do these things with someone - it would make sense...

Astarion had orgies, in the unrealized epilogues. The patch 5 epilogues also have decadence hedonistic parties (which is probably it) It's not that he's against it still. Astarion is quite a horny.

Yes, his bond with Tav is dot the i's and cross the t's. He'll start sulking if it becomes something really serious, I guess. Then he'll start hissing.

In all my play throughs that I’ve romanced Astarion, I’ve never ascended him. I had a thought- does letting him ascend have any effect on you dating Halsin as well? Like does he still allow you to have Halsin on the side or as an ascended Vampire does he no longer allow it?

(I realize there’s a separate conversation that could be had about whether Astarion was ever truly comfortable with you being with Halsin too- not dismissing that, but that could be a conversation for another post.)

All this to say, I have a head canon in my brain hole, where once the epilogue comes around, Tav isn’t allowed to even talk to Halsin, because they “belong” to Astarion.

Knowing what I know about ascended Astarion, and how possessive he can be/is over Tav- I’d be surprised if after ascending he isn’t just like “That thing with Halsin? I forbid it!”

Idk- just something i was thinking about this morning. Would love to hear people’s thoughts- I’ve been toying around with an idea for a one shot based on this, and while i already have my ideas for it, I was wondering how it went in-game.

I think 90% of Asc fans are annoying by the point - Ascended Astarion = Cazador 2.0 It's literally a mockery for me, -- Cazador has a tiny amount of screen time. It's cardboard. -- This devalues Astarion's evil qualities. Which are deep and formed even without Cazador'sin Astarion past when he was a harsh noble magistrate. Cazador influenced them, fear was added. But it didn't cross his will which leaned toward "evil" acts, I'm sure - always did. -- It devalues the path Astarion has traveled. He could be an evil Lord, greedy for power. He can take a more careful path, due to the experience he's had, and if his dark consort doesn't want constant slaughter. And he literally goes down that path of becoming the "Puppet Master", in Original too What makes him different from most Lords in power in Faerun? Lord Astarion plays the power game like most in Baldur's Gate. And The Baldur's Gate is the cradle of corruptibility

Speaking of romance, here's a great point. And another great one

I've been thinking about how the game (and fandom) likens ascended Astarion to Cazador and... I don't really see it?

I mean the main things we know about Cazador are that he's a) willing to sacrifice 7000 people for power, b) power hungry, c) a sadist and d) enjoys controlling people.

but here's the thing. Astarion is power hungry and willing to sacrifice 7000 people before ascending. he doesn't magically become particularly sadistic, and while he does get bossy, he's not actually controlling the way it would be very easy for him to be (with a romanced Tav/Durge, at least if you don't subscribe to the bride theory and think they're just a spawn). like he asks the player what they want to do after everything. that's not... where is he like Cazador?

and don't get me wrong I love me some dark, toxic romance so I'm not even opposed to the idea of him becoming Cazador 2.0, but the text just doesn't really support it?

did I miss something because I can start zoning out near the end of the game?