Bruce And Dick - Tumblr Posts

Hi! Thoughts on Dick and Tim during Murderer/Fugitive, and their argument over whether Bruce killed Vesper?

(My interpretation was that to Dick, Robin means not only unwavering loyalty to Batman, but unwavering faith (“I’m dismayed that there can be a Robin who believes Batman could be guilty of murder”)— whereas to Tim it’s more about having faith in the symbol and the mission, not the person)

Tim (suspicious that Bruce has emotional blind spots and is about to get a case wrong): Nightwing. Channel Two. Go discreet. (Gotham Knights 1)

Dick: I don't - I don't see how you can say that and still wear that uniform... Tim: The guy who gave it to me–the guy who wore it first–HE taught me never to back away from any possibility that might lead to the truth. And he still believes that… right? (Gotham Knights 26)

Ooh, look, it’s one of my favorite comics of all time. <33

Yeah!!  I think hmmm.  Both Dick and Tim are intensely loyal to Bruce and they both care about him a lot.  But they do think about their loyalty to him in very different ways.

Also tl;dr I am biased here but also I am right dsfsfs - although I do think that Tim's loyalty is kinda to the symbol, I also think a big part of the issue here is that Tim's more unambiguous personal faith is given to Dick, not to Bruce. When Dick says, How can you wear that uniform and not have faith in Bruce, Tim answers, essentially, I wear this uniform because I have faith in you. Which is not what Dick wants to hear!

I had SO MANY THOUGHTS about this, so below the cut:

Dick and Bruce and the importance of faith

Tim and Bruce and the importance of doubt

More rambling Dick-and-Tim-and-Bruce thoughts

Dick and Bruce and faith

Dick’s notion of loyalty is pretty firm: “It's no secret Batman and I have had our... issues. But I won't be involved in anything that hurts him.”  His connection to Bruce, from the very beginning, is all about their shared sense of mission: the oath in the candlelight. Dick’s got this intense loyalty that he feels he owes to Bruce, and he feels betrayed when it seems like Bruce isn’t reciprocating, because as far as Dick’s concerned they owe it to each other.

I think you owe me an explanation, Bruce. ... We were the Dynamic Duo, don’t you remember? / If Bruce Wayne doesn’t exist, who am I the son of? / I know you have to live through restraint. I understand how brevity is your moral compass. But why lie to me, of all people? Why would you lie to me. ME. ... I trust you more than anyone. / I've trusted Batman with my life since I was eight. / On top of everything, he's my father now, too... I want to hit people just for thinking bad thoughts about him.

Dick’s first experience of Bruce is fighting by his side.  He initially conceptualizes his role of Robin as about being steadfast partners to each other, and although he'll sometimes later recategorize it as a kid's role, that doesn't change the way he thinks of his own relationship to Bruce: partners, no matter what.

Dick fights with Bruce a lot - he'll pick a physical fight in this very arc! He's not afraid to stand up to Bruce! He wants to be independent and bristles when he feels bossed around or ignored or when Bruce is dismissive or doesn't listen or doesn't call on him for help! But paradoxically, he stands up to Bruce because he has faith in him. Dick respects Bruce enough to confront him and he expects Bruce to offer him the same respect in return. He'll pour out his heart to Bruce because despite everything, some part of him expects Bruce to have an answer, to step up, to be the person Dick's determined to believe he can be.

Tim and Bruce and doubt

By contrast, Tim initially interacts with Bruce like a detective stalking a criminal.  He collects newspaper reports. He follows Bruce and takes photos of him and gathers evidence to present to Dick. He goes to talk to Dick, not Bruce, about Bruce’s problems—and Tim will pretty consistently continue to talk about Bruce to Dick (or occasionally to Alfred), to work behind Bruce’s back, to be frank with Dick in ways that he’s not frank with Bruce.  Tim’s often at pains to insist that he does respect and care about Bruce, but one of the reasons he has to keep insisting this verbally is because his actions and assumptions suggest a lack of trust.

Tim’s first experience of Bruce is of someone who could be a knight or a monster, who needs help and intervention, who can be loved but not entirely trusted.  Someone who isn’t gonna be okay on his own; someone who needs saving and fixing; someone whose sense of himself can’t be entirely trusted or listened to.  Batman needs a Robin.  No matter what he thinks he wants.

In New Titans 71, Wolfman writes Dick musing about Tim as a Robin and how he’s different from Dick himself, and thinking, “He questions more.”  Much later, in Teen Titans/Outsiders, Kory will note the same difference.  Which is a funny thing to write given all Dick’s fights with Bruce—but I also think it’s a true insight!  Tim’s default is questioning.  Almost his entire tenure as Robin is spent as Bruce's apprentice, not his kid, and that affects his attitude a lot. He never takes his trust in Bruce for granted.  It’s carefully considered—and it could be revoked.  A part of Tim is always judging and measuring Bruce, deciding which qualities he thinks are admirable and which ones not so much, what's worrisome and what's not, analyzing whether Bruce is looking after his health or not, etc etc.

You have to promise me something. You'll listen to Alfred and at least call it a night and give yourself a chance to heal. / How many times are we going to have this conversation, Bruce? You died tonight. For almost two minutes you were dead. / Maybe Batman doesn't need to know about this. / He's a hard guy to get to know. / I have friends. He has... associates. / Bruce has been on the job the longest. It’s slowly driven him mad and eaten the human part right out of him. / My boss - my teacher is gone, gone as in fled, but also gone out of his head. And now he may be a murderer as well. / I think maybe Batman has gone crazy. / Don't like the risks he's taking. Don't like the way he spoke to me. I hope it's the concussion talking. I don't want to think his edge is coming back.

It’s not that Dick never worries about Bruce in this way.  He does!  In the arc right before Lonely Place of Dying, his inner monologue compares Bruce to an alcoholic. And IMO it’s strongly implied in Gotham Knights 26 (the Dick-and-Tim fight about Bruce maybe being a murderer) that one of the reasons Dick is so forceful and so upset by Tim’s suggestion is that he’s suppressing his own private doubts.  Tim’s dragging into the open something that Dick is refusing to look closely at.  Dick's faith is an act of will—if I’m going to be Bruce’s ally, then I can’t believe he’s capable of this.  I can’t allow myself to believe it.  And if I believe he’s capable of it, then I’m not acting as his ally anymore:

Dick: "I think it’s… admirable that you can continue serving a system in which you have so little faith. But I can’t. I can’t, Tim. I cannot believe that Batman is guilty of murder. I do not believe it, and I will not believe it. And I can’t stand with anyone who does."

You don't get this upset about somebody saying that the Earth is flat, you know? Dick's not laughing the accusation off; instead, he's drawing a hard line - I will not consider this. I refuse to go there. The topic is off-limits.

(In the same comic, you've got a similar fight going on between Alfred and Leslie with similar stakes - Alfred refusing to believe it but clearly harboring secret doubts, Leslie openly suspicious.)

General Dick-and-Tim-and-Bruce thoughts

Tim to friends: "I lie to Batman" (Teen Titans 3) Dick to Bruce: "But why lie to me, of all people? Why would you lie to me. ME." (Outsiders 21)

It’s always been Tim’s instinct to strategize around Bruce rather than with him. Tim will lie and circumvent Bruce’s orders, whereas Dick will disagree to his face.  Dick respects Bruce enough to give him his say and argue back, whereas Tim tends to think of Bruce as an admired-but-unstable figure who you sometimes listen to but sometimes plan around.

And I think you get the core of that in this arc!

Tim voices his concerns pretty frankly to Dick, but is way more circumspect in front of Bruce, because he doesn't entirely trust Bruce - Tim thinks "is Bruce stable and trustworthy" is "a decision that Dick and I will make in consultation with each other," not a decision that Bruce can make.

In the past, Dick has basically gone along with this kind of thing - he and Tim gossip about Bruce a lot! So it's not surprising that Tim's first thought is that they can confer on it again. But when it becomes a question of "is Bruce murderous, criminal, immoral," then Dick's loyalty kicks in. That's too serious an accusation for Dick to feel entirely comfortable talking about it behind Bruce's back.

Generally IMO, how Dick conceptualizes his loyalty tends to vary a lot depending on who he's talking to. So e.g. in general, Dick's more likely to gripe about Bruce to Tim than he is to gripe about Bruce to the Titans, because he knows that Tim basically likes Bruce. Tim's Robin! Dick takes for granted that Tim is loyal. So it's not disloyal to complain about Bruce to Tim, because Dick and Tim are both on Bruce's side. Dick complains to Tim about Bruce abruptly summoning them into No Man's Land, but doesn't share the same complaint with the Titans. And that's because the Titans aren't friendly toward Bruce in general, and so bitching to them would be disloyal, would be airing dirty laundry outside the family.

By contrast, Tim's a safe audience... until you end up in a situation like Bruce Wayne: Murderer, when suddenly it sounds like Tim may not be on Bruce's side anymore. What are you saying, Tim?

I do think that if Tim had been right, if Bruce had been a murderer, Dick would've ultimately helped take him down. He's very defensive of Bruce because that's how Dick understands the obligations of loyalty, but... he's part of confronting Bruce and demanding explanations in the Cave, and he and Tim (and Cass and Babs) all investigate Bruce together. I think if there had been very very very credible evidence, Dick would've helped fight to take evil!Bruce down. But I also think he would've never stopped mentally searching for an explanation: mind control? body double? I think he'd have an incredibly hard time accepting that Bruce had just murdered someone.

And I mean! In Dick's defense! I don't think Bruce would! At the end of the day, I think Bruce deserves all kinds of criticism in post-Crisis, but I also tend to think that Dick's read of him is a bit more accurate than Tim's, that even though Bruce can act monstrously in all kinds of ways he is at bottom a person who would never ever ever murder a civilian girlfriend no matter how unstable he got and no matter how threatened his secret was. Dick might have a bit more faith in him than he deserves, but at the same time, Tim's jumping to the worst-case scenario pretty fast here, much as he does during Batman: RIP, and I think you could definitely argue that Dick - who's known Bruce longer and better, who lived with Bruce for years instead of just worked with him - has a better and more instinctive sense of Bruce's strengths instead of just his faults.

(And in Tim's defense, as Babs is about to point out to Dick, Bruce has not been behaving especially well recently and Tim has a lot of reasons to be frustrated with him. And Tim's not the only one - Babs is pretty suspicious too!)

.... And of course, I mean, as a Dick and Tim fan, I love that this arc makes very clear that Tim feels his own loyalty is to the symbol, yes, but also that he associates the symbol with Dick first and with Dick's sense of morals, that he trusts Dick, that he sees the costume as something Dick gave him and that's the legacy that he's trying to live up to, to never walk away from the truth, that he thinks the two of them need to be willing to consider the worst of Bruce .... and also the delightful paradox that this isn't loyalty that Dick asked for or wants or welcomes!!

Dick has always taken for granted that Tim was loyal to Bruce, not to Dick; he's not at all happy to hear the opposite. This isn't a heartwarming moment for them but instead a really fraught one, because it's a declaration of Tim's loyalty but it's a declaration of Tim's loyalty that's specifically about not offering unconditional loyalty to Bruce, so Dick feels like he's being invited to be traitors together instead of feeling touched by Tim's trust. Tim's loyalty is something he has to learn to come to terms with rather than something he's happy to have.

And I think that's great!! I love love love these kinds of complicated emotional dynamics (TM), and Bruce Wayne: Murderer is full of them. It's such a fun read.

Reading A Lonely Place of Dying is so interesting in so many ways, but the question I'm still rotating in my mind is about Dick, and specifically why he ends up smiling and soft-advocating for Tim to be Bruce's Robin, after he had his morality crisis over young heroes with Jason's death.

So when he finds out about Jason's death, Dick feels guilty over giving Jason his Robin costume and not being there when he died:

New Teen Titans #55

To the extent that, later in the same issue, he unilaterally fires 15-year-old Danny Chase from the Titans, over Donna and Kory's objections, citing what happened to Jason. He even expresses doubt over his own young age when he became Robin, wondering whether that was a mistake:

New Teen Titans #55

However, when Dick visits Bruce in Gotham to both express his condolences over Jason's death and also confront him over not telling Dick about it, he explicitly rejects Bruce's implication of blame:

New Teen Titans #55

And later, when the Gargoyle is mentally torturing him over his past failures to the Titans, to Bruce, and Jason, Dick breaks through his self-blame issues and firmly asserts that there was nothing he could have done to prevent Jason's death.

Secret Origins (Vol. 2) #3

But understanding his lack of blame logically isn't the same as being totally past it, as it's part of Dick's larger cycle of guilt, as he acknowledges to his therapist:

The New Titans #57

So how does Dick get from here, still wrestling with guilt and feeling ambivalent about the idea of young heroes as a whole, to the end of A Lonely Place of Dying, where he smiles and basically urges Bruce to give Tim a chance to become Robin?

Like, yes, Dick then spends the entirety of Batman: Year Three worried about Bruce's tenuous mental state after Jason's death, reaching out to him in the midst of Batman's reckless, violent spiral, trying to both express care and to call his mentor and hero back to his foundations of crime-fighting through careful detective work, not through brutality - and getting rejected by Bruce over and over. Even while being proud of Dick's methods and the hero he's grown into, Bruce just can't seem to pull himself out of his own morass of self-destruction. Dick eventually has to leave him to it, though he clearly hasn't stopped worrying about Bruce by the start of ALPoD.

Yes, Tim impresses Dick multiple times over the course of ALPoD. First at the circus with his reflexes and his quick thinking (apparently almost as much as he irritates and baffles Dick with his stubborn evasiveness and pushy presumption, lol this total gremlin). Then at Wayne Manor when Tim goes through his deduction of Batman's and Robin's identities, although this one is more an implication through Dick's decision to show Tim the Cave immediately afterward, and Alfred's words to Tim.

Batman #441

And yet Alfred's sentiment here is immediately contradicted when Tim insistently pushes the Robin costume at Dick, and Dick gets pissed off, saying that, "When Jason died, he took Robin with him. And no matter how much anybody may want it - you can't bring back the dead."

The New Titans #61

How does Dick go from this to accepting Tim as the new potential Robin all of two issues later!! This boy's emotions are so mixed up, lol.

I feel like while Dick is clearly angered by Tim's presumptions, kind of baffled and creeped-out by the sort of parasocial fixation Tim has on both Bruce/Batman and Dick/Robin, below the surface he's also genuinely absorbing Tim's driving love and care for them both. Like, he's way too ticked off to show it or even think of it consciously at the moment - and it's hard to process!! despite that day at Haly's Circus tying them together a decade ago, this kid is a rando, it's out of nowhere, it's wild to be confronted with!! - but on some level he has to be touched by Tim's care and passion for their legacy. He wouldn't make his heel-turn later and smile at Tim so approvingly otherwise.

Like, Dick wants Bruce to have a partner that cares for him that much, that forces him to care for himself in a way that he clearly hasn't been since Jason's death. And Dick is both afraid and aware that he can't fill that role anymore - that he can try to stand beside Batman as Nightwing and support him that way, but he can't stand behind Bruce in his protective shadow again, can't cramp himself back into Robin.

So even as Dick is making line-faces at this bizarre kid pushing himself at them, talking about Jason and Dick and Bruce and what Batman needs like he knows better than Dick, UGH… Dick is also considering… is maybe moved a bit by that star-bright conviction and overflowing love in the face of all the doubts that seem to plague both Bruce and Dick lately… is maybe hoping, seeing a possible light in the dark. Not on a conscious level, perhaps, but it's maybe churning below the surface with everything else Dick is thinking about.

Anyway, Dick still tracks Batman down and tries being a supportive partner as Nightwing, even going "I'm here. Always," when Batman finally brings himself to admit that he needs help. Only to IMMEDIATELY run face-first into Bruce's control issues and post-Jason-disregarding-orders trauma - "You're not with the Titans now. If you want to be with me, you follow my orders. Now do as I say." (The New Titans #61) Oof, instant I'm-NIGHTWING-not-ROBIN friction, but Dick swallows it for now.

Then Two-Face blows up a building on top of both of them, and Tim (and Alfred!) have to rescue them both. By the time that they've been dug out, Alfred and Dick are both praising Tim's potential to a very baffled and alarmed, verging on angry, Batman lol. Dick and Alfred then grin at each other while young Tim struggles against his intimidation and argues the tremendously (and understandably!) reluctant Batman to a standstill.

Batman #442

As they drive away afterward (Bruce, Dick and Tim in the Batmobile to track down Two-Face - using the tracker Tim planted on him, good job Timmy!! - and Alfred toward home in a separate car), we get the following thought-bubbles:

Bruce: Even if he's right, I don't want another partner. Dick: Bruce, for once, think with your heart, not with cold logic. Tim: He doesn't want me, but he hasn't said no. So just do your best… Alfred: …One way or another, the rest will take care of itself.

Batman #442

"Think with your heart, not with cold logic" - so does Dick's line here mean that this is what he himself is doing at this point? Setting aside his logic, his fears and reservations about young heroes, about Jason's death, about putting another young boy in the Robin costume - because Tim joining them, maybe becoming Bruce's new partner, feels right? Because everything that Tim has shown of himself so far means the kid deserves a chance, at least? Because Bruce's caution after Jason's death would mean that he'll make sure to 'do it right this time'? Because Tim's passion and conviction could be what Batman needs, and - maybe as much if not more than that - could be something that deserves to be nurtured into something great, despite Dick's own (and Bruce's) fears?

Because Dick has to be wrestling with and at least quelling (if not fully letting go of) his fears about the risks to young heroes in these issues, it doesn't make sense for him to be okay with Tim as Robin otherwise. And it can't all be about what use Tim could be to Bruce - the leash he could put on Batman's out of control behavior. That's far too selfish and manipulative as a sole motive for Dick Grayson; especially after Jason, he wouldn't encourage a kid to jump into the meat-grinder of vigilantism solely to save Bruce or preserve the legacy of Batman & Robin.

I feel like Dick has to also be seeing something in Tim here, his potential, his determination, the good that he can and wants desperately to do, that Dick has to respect, has to think deserves a shot. When Alfred goes, "The boy should be a politician!" and Dick replies, "He'd do more good with Bruce," (Batman #442; panels above), it does feel like he's thinking of the difference Tim himself could make in the world. Dick has to be remembering why he himself could not be put off from the vigilante life when he was even younger than Tim, why Jason also went out there and did his best every night. To help people, in a way that mattered.

Anyway, Tim also puts in a good showing when they confront Two-Face, despite giving Bruce a near heart-attack over this strange unfamiliar boy wearing his son's uniform when Tim briefly appears to have been crushed - only for him to have saved himself and warned Batman and Nightwing of danger through his quick thinking.

Afterward, Alfred and Dick both advocate for Tim, so Dick is clearly pulling for Tim to be given a chance. Dick's smile here, my heart.

Batman #442

I still wish they'd been a little more explicit with the turn of Dick's mindset here, but at the same time I guess it's pretty effective as show-not-tell!

All in all, I feel like ALPoD was very effective storytelling, well done Marv, hugely enjoyable read, and I can't wait to read more.