Comic Reference - Tumblr Posts
Masterlist of Comic Knowledge Posts
(To be expanded upon as new posts are made, but for now, here’s a place you can find any big questions I’ve answered or comic info I’ve dug up)
DC Timeline Powerpoint
Batkid Nicknames Powerpoint
Batkid Hero Names/Undercover Aliases Powerpoint
A Crash Course in the CW Arrowverse
What Was Jason Like As Robin?
The Significance of Jason’s Bat Symbol
Damian’s First Canon Interactions With Each Batfam Member
The Brady Bunch
What Instruments Do the Batkids Play?
How Tim Lost His Spleen
When and Why Tim Changed His Color Scheme to Red and Black
Batkids + Major Injuries
The History of Damian’s Skin Tone in Comics
Is Dick White?
Crash Course on Bart Allens’ Death
The Batkids + Swearing
Duke Thomas’ Personality and How to Write It
My Cringey Old Tim Drake + Depression Masterpost
“I Don’t Hit My Kids” Yeah Okay Old Man
If You Were Wondering Whether Dick and Tim Like Pineapple On Pizza, the Answer is Yes
Remember the Time N52 Bart Was a Psychopath
Batkids + Their Last Words When They Died
Every Panel of the Batkids Referring to Each Other As Siblings That I Could Find
Damian and Selina’s Current Relationship
Tim is a Health Nut
The Aftermath of Bart’s Death
Every Panel of Bruce and Dick Being Referred to As Father and Son That I Could Find
Every Panel of Bruce and Jason Being Referred to As Father and Son That I Could Find
Every Panel of Bruce and Tim Being Referred to As Father and Son That I Could Find
Every Panel of Duke and Cass Being Referred to As Bruce’s Children That I Could Find
Bruce’s “Death” and Battle For the Cowl Explained
The Confusing History of Ra’s and Talia’s Eye Colors
Jason Suffers From Chronic Pain, Y’all
Damian Nicknames
Wally West’s Dating History
That Time Dick Was in the Mob
What the Public Knows About Jason’s Death
Why Does No One Remember That Dick Was Raped When He Was 16
The Dark Origin of Jerry the Turkey
The Batkids + Mourning Each Other’s Deaths
Jason is a Canon Book Nerd
No, Dick Did Not Try to Throw Tim in Arkham
Dead Robins Club Members
Bruce + Calling the Batkids His Children
Which Batkids Have Been Raped/Assaulted?
Talia al Ghul Before and After Grant Morrison Got Their Hands On Her
All the Times Tim Was Down With Murder
Tim Not Sleeping is a Canon Thing
FOR THE LAST TIME, JASON WAS INDEED THERE DURING BATMAN: HUSH!! IT WASN’T CLAYFACE THE ENTIRE TIME!!!
Batfam Deaths and Resurrections: A Timeline
All the Barbara Gordon (w/ Batfamily) Hugs I Could Find
All the Bruce Wayne (w/ Batfamily) Hugs I Could Find
All the Cassandra Cain (w/ Batfamily) Hugs I Could Find
All the Damian Wayne (w/ Batfamily) Hugs I Could Find
All the Dick Grayson (w/ Batfamily) Hugs I Could Find
All the Duke Thomas (w/ Batfamily) Hugs I Could Find
All the Jason Todd (w/ Batfamily) Hugs I Could Find
All the Stephanie Brown (w/ Batfamily) Hugs I Could Find
All the Tim Drake (w/ Batfamily) Hugs I Could Find
Dick and Damian’s Relationship
The Timeline of Jason’s Death and Resurrection
The Timeline of Jason’s Return to Gotham
Tim + His Parents: One Big All-Encompassing Post Covering Tim’s Relationships With Jack and Janet Drake
Tim and Jason’s Pre-52 Relationship + Jason’s Winning At “How Many Times Can We Try to Kill Tim” Bingo
Jason is Good With Kids
Dick and Cass: Canon Interactions
Is Tim Really Into Photography?
Tim Being Depressed/Suicidal
Dick Grayson and Tarantula: A Hella Toxic Relationship
when will tim be allowed to sleep (from Robin (1993) #9, 28, 52, 56, 75, 87, 93, 116, 162, 12, 171)
posing for the photo vs the photo they got
Dick Grayson & Tim Drake: A Photograph
A photo of my family and you’re in it.
Comic sources:
Batman #441
Secret Origins #50
Batman #436
Batman #436
Batman #441
Batman #441
Secret Origins #50
Secret Origins 80-Page Giant #1, “Little Wing”
Secret Origins 80-Page Giant #1, “Little Wing” [edited]
Secret Origins 80-Page Giant #1, “Little Wing”
Secret Origins #50
Detective Comics #965
52 #31, “The Origin of Robin”
Batman #441 - Cover by George Pérez
Red Robin #12
Secret Origins 80-Page Giant #1, “Little Wing”
Batman #440
Image descriptions in alt text are also copied below read more.
1. Two comic panels from Batman #441 showing 13-year old Tim Drake sitting in a chair at Wayne Manor, with Dick Grayson in front of him and Alfred Pennyworth standing beyond that. They all have serious expressions on their faces. Tim says, “Okay, you won’t take me seriously until I tell you everything. Dick, I don’t want this to hurt you. And I’m really afraid it might.” Dick says, “Tim, just tell your story, please.” Tim reaches into his jacket as if to grab something and says, “All right, all right. Well, first, my name’s Tim Drake…and though you won’t remember it, we’ve met before. I’ve even got a photograph to prove it.”
2. Text from Secret Origins (1986) #50 that says: A woman with a small boy in the front of the grandstand waved to him. All three Graysons trotted to her. “This is Tim’s first time at the circus,” she said, patting the boy’s thin shoulder, “and we were wondering if you’d let us take your photo with him.” “Of course,” Mother replied, smiling. “We’d be delighted.”
3. Comic panels from Batman #436 showing John and Mary Grayson in their yellow, green, and red circus costumes as they walk through the circus with a young Dick Grayson between them. John says, “Dick, I’ve got those tickets for the baseball game monday.” Dick grins up at him and says, “You really got ‘em? Wow! I can’t believe I’m actually going to the World Series.” Someone off-panel says, “Umm, excuse us for interrupting, but—” The Drakes walk right up to the Graysons. Janet is in a pink day dress and Jack is in a suit, holding a very young Tim Drake in his arms. Janet says, “This is Tim’s first time at a circus, and we were wondering if you’d let us take your photo with him?” Mary Grayson puts her hands on Dick’s shoulders as Dick grins up at little Tim, who smiles down at him in response. Mary says, “Of course…we’d be delighted.” They all pose for a picture with the crowds behind them. Jack and Janet stand between John and Mary, while Dick kneels in the front holding young Tim up on his knee. He looks down at Tim, who looks back, and with a smile, Dick says, “Tim, say cheese.”
4. A comic panel from Batman #436 showing Alfred Pennyworth’s hands holding out and gesturing towards a photo as he says, “Gentlemen, and ladies—the very last photo of the Grayson family together. One last moment of happiness.” The photo shows the Grayson and Drake families together in the same poses as the previous image. John and Mary Grayson stand on either side of Jack and Janet Drake, while Dick kneels on one knee with his other knee up, where he is holding young Tim to sit on the knee. The parents are looking forewards, but Dick and Tim are looking at each other. The Graysons are all in their circus costumes, but the Drakes are in suits and Janet a dress.
5. A comic page from Batman #441. The first panel shows Tim Drake, who is sitting in a chair at Wayne Manor and holding up a photo of the Drakes with the Flying Graysons while Dick Grayson is standing in front of Tim’s chair. Tim says, “This was taken on my first trip to the circus—on the day I saw Batman for the first time...On the day your parents were killed.” Dick Grayson looks shocked, and takes the photo as he says, “Oh, my god—my parents.” Alfred Pennyworth, standing behind Dick, says, “I—I know this photograph, that’s you?” Tim looks up at them and says, “Uh-huh. After Bruce Wayne made you his ward, my parents sent it to you. They thought you’d want it. I was only a kid, but I don’t think I’ll ever forget what happened. I had nightmares about it for years. First about your parents, then about Batman. I kept seeing this dark black thing that swooped out of the sky. No, no—let me start at the beginning.” The scene changes to a gold-toned memory of the Drakes walking through Haly’s Circus. Janet is in a light dress, holding Jack’s arm as they grin at each other. Jack is in a suit, holding a young Tim who is also in a suit and has a big smile on his face as he reaches towards a passing Clown. Janet says, “I think you were right, honey—he loves it. Look at him laughing at everything.” Jack replies, “Hey, I said he wasn’t too young.” Janet says, “Okay, I was wrong. But sometimes circuses can frighten kids.” The Drakes walk through the circus, toward where you can see the Flying Graysons walking together. Janet continues, “They’re loud and rowdy, and I remember when I was Timothy’s age I was scared by people wearing costumes. Sue me. I'm a mother. I worry.” Jack says, “You were a girl. Tim’s a boy. That’s the difference.” Janet smiles up at Jack and says, “Sexism, dear? And here I thought you were liberated.” Jack follows Tim’s eyesight toward the smiling Flying Graysons as they walk past, then says, “Okay, okay, I’m sorry. Look, if you’re so worried, there’re a couple of the performers. Let’s take him over there. He’ll see they’re people just like him.”
6. A comic page from Batman #441 showing a gold-toned memory scene with the Flying Graysons, all in acrobatics costumes remniscent of the Robin suit, and the Drakes, who are wearing formal dress. Mary and John are smiling at Dick walking between them as Dick excitedly says, “—I’m actually going to the world series?” Beyond him, Janet and Jack Drake are walking up to them, with Jack holding a very young smiling Tim in his arms. Jack says, “Umm, excuse us for interrupting, but this is Tim’s first time at the circus…and we were wondering if you’d let us take your photo with him?” The two families pose, with Dick on one knee with Tim Drake sitting on his other knee, held up by Dick’s arms. Tim stares at Dick in wonder as Dick smiles at him and says, “Tim, say cheese.” 13-year-old Tim speaks through a narration box to say, “Maybe I knew you were just a kid like me, but I kept staring at you, and your circus costume. It was bright red and green and you seemed so happy in it.” In the memory, Dick pats Tim’s head as he gets ready to leave, and says, “Watch me on the trapeze, Tim. I’m going to do my act—‘specially for you. Be good now.” Then the scene returns to the present, in regular color, showing 13-year-old Tim sitting in Wayne Manor while Alfred and Dick look at him. Tim says, “I don’t remember the clowns or the animals, or anything else. I just remember waiting for you to go on. And then, when you did, I just sat there and watched.”
7. Text from Secret Origins #50 that says: The photo was snapped and the Graysons returned to the darkness of the backstage area and did the stretching exercises Johnny Grayson insisted precede every performance. On the other side of the canvas wall, the crowd was laughing and applauding the clowns’ fireman routine. They heard the ringmaster’s round baritone, amplified and distorted by the loud speakers, booming through the tent. “Ladies and gentlemen, children of all ages—for your entertainment and amusement, doing their death-defying act without benefit of a net—” Johnny kissed his wife and ruffled his son’s hair.
8. A comic panel from Secret Origins 80-Page Giant #1, the fourth story, showing Tim Drake and Dick Grayson sitting on a couch in Dick Grayson’s apartment. Tim is on the left wearing a pink and purple Gotham Knights jersey with a matching hat. He’s pointing at Dick, who’s turned to listen attentively to Tim while wearing a white tank top and gray sweats as he clicks a TV remote. Tim says, “Dick, meeting you—and him—have been the single most defining moments of my life.” The scene changes to the memory of the Drakes and the Flying Graysons posing together in Haly’s Circus while someone who is just a silhouette takes a photo of them. John and Mary are standing on either side of Jack and Janet with wide smiles, each in their red, yellow, and green acrobatics outfits. John’s and Dick’s outfits look particularly remniscent of the Robin outfit. Dick is kneeled in front of the parents with one knee up where young Tim is sitting on his thigh, smiling and looking at Dick. 14-year-old Tim narrates this memory by saying, “Some days I wish I could go back to feeling like that. You promised me that you’d do a quadruple somersault. And you delivered. It was the best day of my life. And then your parents died.”
9. An edited comic panel from Secret Origins 80-Page Giant #1 of very young Tim Drake with his father’s arm on his shoulder, both looking up at John and Mary Grayson falling. John and Mary are in their red, yellow, and green acrobatics costumes, knees bent and arms stretched with one part of hands barely touching. Behind them, their acrobatic lines are snapping. Crowds in the large tent are yelling and pointing up at them. Tim’s face is not visible but he’s clearly watching them fall.
10. A comic panel from Secret Origins 80-Page Giant #1 of nine-year-old Tim Drake staring at a TV screen, on which Robin is visible mid-flip, arms holding his legs tucked in. The Penguin is croached with his back turned to Robin, directly in position for Robin to land on him. Audio from the TV is saying, “Wanted for theft of the Lapis Lazuli Horus Crown, the so-called Penguin was apprehended by the Batman and a young costumed vigilante…” 13-year-old Tim narrates the memory of his younger self, saying: “You gave yourself away with the quad. The ringmaster told the crowd at Haly’s that only three people alive could pull off a jump like that—you and a pair of Russian gymnasts that defected from the Bolshoi to Ringing Brothers. I knew it was you.” Off-panel, Dick Grayson responds to Tim’s recollection by saying, ”Incredible. A nine-year-old kid figures out the best-kept secret on the planet.” In the memory, just beyond young Tim in the background are Jack and Janet Drake at a table, with Jack looking like he’s speaking angrily.
11. Text from Secret Origins #50 that says: Below, the ringmaster was saying, “Ladies and gentlemen, quiet, please, as young Dick Grayson attempts the in-credible…im-possible…quadruple flip of doom!” Dick breathed deeply and slowly, relaxing himself as Johnny had taught him, grabbed the bar, pushed off the platform, letting momentum carry him— But was something wrong? The trapeze didn’t feel right. —and allowed his mind to empty, and there were the few dizzy, exhilarating instants: spin spin spin spin. Feet thudding onto the platform. Roar of applause. Mother’s warm fingers touching his cheek. Ringmaster’s boom: “Let’s hear it, ladies and gentlemen—dauntless Dick Grayson, the boy wonder of the circus!”
12. A comic page from Detective Comics #965 showing a warm-toned scene of 13-year-old Tim Drake talking to a gobsmacked Dick Grayson in Wayne Manor. Tim says, “C’mon, Dick—that flip you did as Robin. It was a quadruple somersault. The circus ringmaster said only three people could do that.” Tim holds up a photo of the Drakes with the Flying Graysons, and continues, “I knew that somersault. Knew it like I knew my own name.” Tim smiles and says, “And it all made sense. Batman showed up at the circus and took you with him. About six months later, Robin made his first appearance. If you were Robin, and you were Bruce Wayne’s ward—I realized Bruce Wayne was batman.” The scene zooms out to show Tim sitting in a chair as Dick and Alfred Pennyworth stare at him. Tim says, “I don’t want to say the rest was easy, because you guys really covered your tracks. But if you go in knowing Bruce Wayne and Dick Grayson are Batman and Robin, well, you can find the clues to prove it.”
13. Comic panels from 52 #31, 2nd story, “The Origin of Robin.” 9-year-old Tim Drake is shown from the back, sitting on the floor staring at a TV screen that shows Dick Grayson as Robin, flipping through the air. Tim’s face is reflected in the TV screen, showing his awestruck smile. Various objects are scattered on the floor in front of Tim, including pizza, books, and a magnifying glass. Orange narration boxes say, “The eyes of a fan caught a moment the rest of the world had overlooked. Tim Drake—and Tim Drake alone—had grown up fascinated by the career of an obscure and forgotten child acrobat named Dick Grayson—but when Tim saw Batman’s partner Robin perform Grayson’s signature gymnastic moves, something clicked in Tim’s mind.” The next panel shows Tim in a trenchcoat, expression awestruck as he shines a flashlight through a glass case in which a pristine Robin costume is hanging. The narration boxes continue, “Over the next few years, Tim—through a series of clues and lucky breaks—proved conclusively that Grayson was Robin…or, rather, had been.”
14. George Pérez’s cover art for Batman #441, cropped to focus on the lower half. Dick Grayson, in civilian clothing, is standing in the forefront of the image, with the 80’s Batcave looming around him. He’s looking down with a pensive expression at the Robin costume held in his hands. Behind to the right, Tim Drake (also in civilian clothing) is standing with photographs falling out of his hands in front of Dick’s shoes. The closest photo shows the Flying Graysons posing with the Drake family. The next closest two photos are of Robin and Batman. Beyond Dick and the photos, to the left, is Alfred Pennyworth. Up at the top, partially cropped away, are Batman and Two Face’s lower faces, with a scene of a bridge by Batman’s face and a flipping coin with a scene of Gemini casinio behind it right next to Two Face’s face. In the Batcave, the giant penny, the T-rex, and the massive batcomputer are all on prominent display.
15. Comic panels from Red Robin #12 of Dick Grayson talking to Tim Drake with a blurry aquamarine Batcave behind them. Dick is wearing the chestplate of the Batman suit but no cowl, as he looks intensely (with the slightest smile) toward Tim, who is shirtless, revealing long pink scratches and scars along his shoulder and cheek. Tim, looking up at Dick, says, “Ra’s—” Dick says, “Gone. We swept the place and got nothing. You want to tell me what that was all about?” Tim replies, “It’s...a little complicated. But I think we’re good for a while.” Dick says, “How’d you know? How did you know I’d be there to save you?” Tim smiles up at Dick as he says, “You’re my brother, Dick. You’ll always be there for me.”
16. A comic panel from Secret Origins 80-Page Giant #1 showing Tim drake and Dick Grayson sitting on the couch in Dick’s apartment. Dick is reaching over to mess with Tim’s hair as Tim laughs and leans away, raising his hands to jokingly defend against Dick. Behind them in the apartment is a desk with a computer whose screen is lit up with a woman’s sketchy face. Dick says, “Got a friend visiting.” Barbara Gordon, over Dick’s computer audio, asks, “Anyone I know?” Dick says, “Little brother.”
17. Cropped art from Batman #440 of a cool-toned photograph with the Flying Graysons and the Drake family posing together. The Flying Graysons are all in their acrobatics outfits. John and Dick Grayson’s outfits are styled similarly, looking like a mix of the original Robin suit and Tim Drake’s first Robin suit. John and Mary are stood to either side of the smiling Jack and Janet Drake. Jack is in a suit and his hands are resting on Janet’s arms. Janet is wearing a day dress. In front of all the parents, Dick Grayson is down on one knee, with his left knee up so little Tim Drake can be perched on his thigh. Tim is in a a suit, similar to his father, and he’s looking up at Dick with a broad, awestruck smile. Dick is holding Tim in place with his arms, and instead of looking toward the camera like the parents are, he’s meeting Tim’s eyes with a smile. Behind them all, the crowds of Haly’s Circus are vaguely visible. In the corner by Dick’s right left, 13-year-old Tim Drake’s thumb is resting on the photograph, as if he’s holding it.
The Birthday Comics (Tim’s Less Than Sweet 16th Birthday)
This is simply a (less in-depth) exploration into Robin (1993) Issues 116-120 for those curious. (I tried to be as direct as possible).
Issue 116 starts at the “conclusion” of another case that Tim had been working on. Due to his time spent on the case, he is less than aware of the timeline and namely that his 16th birthday is just around the corner (the coming Thursday (19th of July)).
Upon realizing that Tim is unaware that his 16th birthday is coming up, Dana (Tim’s father’s partner and icon of a woman), decides to have essentially a surprise party for Tim.
During this party, as the gifts are being ripped into it is established that a gift of unknown origin (a box) was delivered to Tim’s place earlier that morning (it was addressed to Tim Drake).
Tim contacts Batman about the mystery gift as he is unsure what it is and suspects that it may be from an enemy who has put together that Tim Drake=Robin. Batman and Tim analyze the box and find finger prints belonging to a man named Draygo Balacki aka Yak Black. Yak Black is a henchman utilized by several other criminals within Gotham. He is strong; he is not smart.
To find information about Yak Black, Tim interrogates Harvey Dent while Batman interrogates the Penguin (both former employers of Yak Black). Batman contacts Tim during his interrogation with Dent and says Penguin has given him all the info they need and to meet at Yak’s place.
When running across Gotham rooftops to rendezvous with Batman, following their separate interrogations, the mystery box opens up and attaches wires to Tim’s face showing him a holographic Future Alfred.
Future Alfred talks in a creaky, tired, and desperate voice that is not as familiar as the normal Alfred tone that Tim is used to. Along with that, his right hand is no longer flesh.
Firstly, Future Alfred tells Tim that Yak Black was indeed the man who delivered the box, but that he would have slim to no recollection of doing so. Yak was acting on thought commands sent back in time from Future Alfred and Yak himself is not intelligent enough to have created the box. Secondly, Alfred tells Tim about the future of Gotham.
Essentially, someone, a friend of Tim’s, tried to rid Gotham of it’s corruption and in trying to do so became corrupt themselves (sacrificing too much for order). This friend was the catalyst to a war-ridden future Gotham wherein a group of heroes are at conflict with the government and state bodies over who “owns” Gotham/how to counteract crime.
Future Alfred says it is up to Tim to prevent this from happening–he must stop the catalyst before it is too late. However, before Alfred can name the person who started everything, he is struck down.
Of course, Tim does not believe all of this right away as there is too much going on at play. That being said, Tim does not tell Bruce (or anyone else for that matter) about Future Alfred–even when Batman implores into why Tim is starting to act strange and why he was late meeting up at Yak’s place (Batman takes Yak to the Batcave for questioning).
Tim flips between slight belief and complete disbelief eventually arriving to the conclusion that the holograph and the box were simply a trick–and he has suspicions as to who could be behind the trick. Tim suspects a man named Jaeger (an unethical monster hunter that Tim has fought with in the past) is extracting his revenge. However, this is quickly proven false after Tim’s investigation establishes that Jaeger is serving time in prison.
Following this, Batman contacts Tim with an update involving Yak. Batman interrogated Yak through various methods, one such method being “hypnotizing and regressing him [Yak] while hooked up to the Neuro-ontoscope”. The Neuro-ontoscope was a new device in the Bat cave that produced video and audio directly from a subject’s brain–their thoughts, memories, etc. Yak’s state of mind is nearly all blank, minus an audio that Tim recognizes as the voice of Future Alfred.
Tim is now starting to think that the Hologram was real and not a fake.
Tim heads to the Batcave only to find Yak running free within it. The two get into a fight and as a result the Neuro-ontoscope is crashed into and broken.
Tim now starts to critically look at everyone (hero-wise) he knows that could possibly be the catalyst for a war-ridden future Gotham… everyone–no exceptions. He starts to look at friends and family–desperately trying to piece together who could possibly be the one to “snap”.
Tim then comes up with a plan to talk to each person he thinks could turn (which was any of them). This plan involved showing each person the stepping stones that would led to the creation of a “better” Gotham– a more controlled Gotham.
Essentially Tim was going to go up to them and say “hey, we should take over Gotham and be the only voice of justice seeing as the state and police can not handle it.” This plan was meant to work as a way of getting one of the individuals to show their true colors by not being so harsh in rejecting it or by agreeing with Tim to any extent.
However, on his way to implement the plan, another Holographic Future Alfred shows up, but wait–this one Tim can touch?? And unlike the first Future Alfred, this Alfred has lost the left arm–not his right arm.
There’s more off to this Alfred as well. It smells weird–of ozone fainter and… latex? Tim snaps and rips off the mask of the man pretending to be Future Alfred to reveal:
Alfred?
Following this, it is revealed that the whole thing was part of a training module made by Batman.
After hearing such, Tim snapped. He says he’s down and expresses that he was on the verge of a breakdown as he felt he could no longer trust anyone.
Towards the end of the 120, Steph paints the situation in a slightly different light. She points out the differences between the test Batman put her through and the test he put Tim through–mentioning that Batman believed Tim had the potential, and was ready to, become more.
This slightly frightened Tim.
But not enough to prevent him from picking back up the mantle.
But I'm so tired. The fight... I hate that I know how to take down my family. I hate that it's something I've thought about before.
From Tim Drake: Robin #3
And beneath the cut, two other times Tim thought of his family as people he might need to take down, aka one of my favourite aspects of his character.
In Robin #117, while celebrating his 16th birthday, Tim gets a message from future!Alfred about one of their friends destroying Gotham:
Tim then spends some quality time stalking his friends, thinking up worst case scenarios:
From Robin #120
Of course it turns out this was all Bruce's idea of a training exercise, which Tim takes super well:
From Robin #120
He realizes the real problem is that Bruce is asking him to enter a headspace that scares the hell out of him, but ultimately, that's not enough to get him to stop being Robin:
From Robin #120
Time passes and, in Red Robin #14, we see Tim's gotten a lot more comfortable with this particular headspace of making plans to take down his family should the need arise:
He might hate this part of himself, but that's not gonna stop him from being prepared:
From Tim Drake: Robin #3
Batfam Age Guide
I wanna help break down the age gaps in the Batfam because it can help with world building and with situating your characters in an era. Also you wanna pick a birth year? Well start back counting from here.
Age Gaps:
- Dick Grayson is 18 years younger than Bruce Wayne. At the age of 8 he was taken in by 26 year old Bruce Wayne.
- Dick Grayson was about 20 when he met a 13 year old Jason Todd making him 7 years older than Jason.
*- Dick Grayson was 22 when he met Tim Drake who was 13. Making him 9 years older than Tim.
- Jason Todd and Cass Cain are usually described the same age and many guess born in the same year. Cass was born in January and Jason was born in August. Making Cass roughly 8 months older than Jason.
- Cass then fits within the same time frames as Jason ish. Depends on the birth months of the others but we’ll get there.
*- Damian Wayne is a little off (thanks Morrison) but if we take him at 10 when he first enters the household Tim is about 16 and Dick is about 25. Making Damian 15 years younger than Dick, 8 ish years younger than Jason and Cass, and 6 years younger than Tim.
- Duke Thomas is currently 16 but I would say should be turning 17 soon. The ages are currently at their hand waviest so making an age gap is tricky. But if we go off the age we know that Damian is 13 and should probably be turning 14 soon we can say Duke is 3 years older than Damian. Which means Duke should be 12 years younger than Dick, 5 ish years younger than Jason and Cass, and 3 years younger than Tim.
-Steph Brown is noted to be a year older than Tim. Making her likely a year younger than Cass and less than a year younger than Jason.
*-Barbara Gordon is ??? I don’t know.
Birthdays:
Here’s what I’ve got for you for the Batfam B-Days. And I’m getting my info from here which is v accurate and has a bunch more including other Earths/Timelines and important dates in general so check it out. But the timeline I’m going off of is the most modern dates. And chronologically in order of oldest to youngest.
Bruce Wayne: February 19th
Babara Gordon: September 23rd
Dick Grayson: November 11th
Cass Cain: January 26th (Not on the site David Cain just told her that once)
Jason Todd: August 16th
Steph Brown: ? (No birthday found anywhere)
Tim Drake: July 19th
Duke Thomas: ?
*Damian Wayne: ?
Clarifications:
*First point- Tim Drake’s age. It uh doesn’t make sense. Never has and I doubt it ever will. Tim literally could not have been alive when Dick’s parents were killed now that Rebirth has reset Dick to being taken in at 8. But going off of math this is right for Tim’s age. It just you know doesn’t fit in the timeline but they still pretend he’s 17 so whatever.
*Second point- Morrison couldn’t be bothered to do their homework. So Damian’s age makes no sense. Talia didn’t meet Bruce until Dick Grayson was in college. Meaning Damian should at a max be like 6 or 7. It just it doesn’t matter and there was a hyper aging thing and then like whatever but just know Damian was 10 when he first showed up and forget about the rest. It hurts the brain to try and make it fit cause it just doesn’t.
*Third point- Babs originally was much older than Dick Grayson closer to Bruce in age. And now she’s closer in age to Dick but writers can’t seem to agree on how close. Sometimes she appears be anywhere from 6 to 2 years older than Dick and other times they’re written as if they’re the same age. So who knows? Certainly not the writers.
*Fourth Point- Speaking of no date, Damian has never had a birthday listed. Like I have never seen it and I’ve read a lot of Batman comics nor did my research find one.
Ending Note:
So these dates are pretty solid across continuity but you’ll find discrepancies say in art style or in the things each kid is doing. The most important thing to remember is most DC writers couldn’t give a fuck about matching these numbers and we shouldn’t stress too much about them. But this is a general guidelines to building your Batfam timeline. Hope this helps.
A bit of dejavu from the new Batman #131. Bruce has been zapped away (again) and Tim isn't taking it well (again).
The biggest difference this time is that Dick believes Tim.
But, of course, things are never that simple.
In many ways this is a callback not only to when Tim became Red Robin but all the way back to the why he became Robin in the first place. He sees that Bruce is broken on a fundamental level. The man is in a self-destructive spiral that Tim is determined to stop.
I have to wonder, though. Is this Tim recomitting himself to the ideal that "Batman needs a Robin" or will he finally understand what Dick has been trying to tell him (nobody but Bruce can fix Bruce)? This might be the first steps of Tim moving to a new identity. I guess only time will tell.
People talk more about Batman: Contagion than its sequel, but that scene in Legacy where Tim feels so hopeless about becoming terminally ill that he almost gives up fighting when they’re about to die but Bruce saves him because Bruce refuses to let him die even if he doesn’t want to live and believes he won’t survive…it’s so potent.
Detective Comics #700
Image descriptions: Three pages from the above comic.
The first page shows Bruce as Batman and Tim as Robin, treading water and surrounded by walls on all sides. Bruce says, “Get your cape off. It’s too much weight.” Tim takes off the cape and asks, “Can you see the top?” Bruce replies, “The tank is enclosed. Probably a hatch of some kind.” Tim: “quh—getting harder to paddle. Can’t feel my legs.” Bruce: “Just hold on until we reach the top. That hatch most likely leads to a well chamber.” Tim: “nuh—not sure I can. Arms feel like lead—” Tim spits out water, then continues, “I’m dead anyway, right? Sooner or later, the Clench is coming back with a vuh-vengeance.” Bruce looks at him and says, “You’re just going to give up on yourself? That’s not your decision to make, Robin. Not as long as we’re partners.”
The second page shows the water has risen closer to the hatch at the top. Tim says, “Enough air pressure to—to—kill us—” Tim’s mouth goes underwater, and Bruce turns his head to look from where he’s pressing his bat vest against the hatch. He yells, “Robin!” He grabs Tim and holds Tim’s head above water as his nose starts to bleed, saying, “Damn the physics—we’re not going to die. We’re not.” The water rises to their chins, both their noses bleed and Bruce grits his teeth as he continues, “I…won’t…let us!” The next panel shows the hatch flying off with a “whuff!”
The third page shows a sopping wet Bruce, without his shirt, carrying a similarly wet but unconscious Tim over one shoulder as he climbs out of the hole in the floor. The background shows they’re in the ruins of an old structure. End IDs.
i’m sure someone has made this list before. but i’ve recently reread the robin (1993-2009) comics and realised how Batshit Crazy tim’s time as robin was. here’s a list of major events that happened during his tenure:
obeah man???: still not clear on exactly what happened here, but his parents are both poisoned, resulting in his mom’s death and his dad’s long-term coma.
knightfall/knightquest/knightsend: the iconic arc when bane breaks bruce’s back and azrael (derogatory) temporarily becomes batman then quickly goes off the rails and tries to kill tim, forcing him to go solo and work with huntress (hashtag girlboss) before bruce returns and handles azrael
contagion: the incurable Apocalypse Virus™ threatens to wipe out gotham city and tim naturally catches it and nearly dies before bruce returns with The Cure
the final night: a sun-eater tries to Eat The Sun. tim meets impulse! robin and spoiler defend gotham city on their own during the crisis! tim’s girlfriend’s crazy mafia uncle tries to kill him after finding them in bed together (not doing the sexy. but it looked like they were gonna do it.)
cataclysm: a massive earthquake levels half of gotham, throwing the city into crisis and causing some problems in tim’s personal life as his father relocates them to keystone briefly before tim’s misery convinces him to move them back to gotham
no man’s land (a personal favourite): gotham’s post-earthquake crisis worsens and the government decides that the best solution is to declare it no man’s land. shockingly, this causes Even More Problems. there’s a whole thing where tim’s dad realises tim snuck off into the city, and the news about it makes people sympathetic enough to gotham’s (cough a rich white family’s) plight that the government decides to actually help. cass becomes batgirl!
young justice/teen titans drama!: so much went on here. i don’t even know where to begin. the whole imperiex/our worlds at war apocalyptic crisis. tim quits young justice after the thing where the justice league discovers batman’s Super Paranoid Contingency Plans™ causes the team to distrust him. he returns to the team, which is disbanded after a team-up with the titans goes badly. the teen titans is formed. general fuckery involving tim’s civilian life!
unmasked: tim’s dad finds out he’s robin, confronts batman in the batcave with a gun and forces tim to quit. steph becomes robin and cuts off contact with tim. superboy tries to convince tim to come back to teen titans, but tim insists that he’s Totally Happy Just Being A Civilian, Kon. Really. He’s Less Stressed Now That He’s Not Dealing With Constant Crises! (lying)
war games: oh god. we all know this one. gang war! gotham in peril! steph dies! tim meets evil!future batman!tim who murdered the entire rogue gallery with the gun that killed bruce’s parents. tim seriously considers killing himself to prevent this future.
identity crisis: a Mysterious Villain begins targeting families of the justice league. because tim is not allowed to have anything remotely nice, his dad is murdered (by captain boomerang, which is frankly adding insult to injury). tim invents an uncle to avoid getting adopted by bruce (really, kid? really?). bruce finds out and helps him solidify the fake uncle’s identity (bruce no)
robin: to kill a bird: jason todd returns all crazy and nearly kills tim at titans’ tower (dressed in a version of his robin costume) and signs his name in tim’s blood. theatre kid much, jason?
infinite crisis: c’mon dc, you’ve done like four world-ending crises in the last decade. chill your goddamn tits. the teen titans, doom patrol, and justice society of america team up to take down superboy prime. normal superboy dies due to the fight, despite tim’s desperate attempt to find a cure. also bludhaven got nuked and tim’s stepmother gets a traumatic brain injury and is permanently hospitalised. then bruce, tim, and dick go on vacation and tim accepts bruce’s offer to adopt him! yay!
one year later: cass is briefly evil! the league of assassins tries to recruit tim, who barely escapes with his life after turning them down. then he goes a little crazy with grief, tries to clone kon, and has a brief relationship with extreme violence before deciding to break it off.
the resurrection of ra’s al ghul: damian arrives in gotham! and tries to kill tim multiple times! ra’s tries to seduce tim to the Dark Side with the promise of resurrecting his parents! tim refuses! ra’s tries to force bruce to sacrifice either tim or damian to become his new host body! tim tries to sacrifice himself but is convinced by dick to Not Do That at the last minute!
batman r.i.p.: bruce dies, but not really! fun times!
battle for the cowl: i like to pretend this doesn’t exist, because it is Stupid As Fuck. jason nearly kills tim again, but damian (!) rescues him.
red robin: dick makes damian robin. the end!
but not really
and then of course the whole red robin series (which i love) is just like. tim is passively suicidal! tim loses an entire important organ while working with the loa! tim becomes ceo of wayne enterprises then blows up the loa and ra’s almost kills him! tim is nearly raped by one of ra’s’ daughters because ra’s really wants tim’s babies! this is not dealt with at all!!! love that for him
wait Jack and Steph die in the same week?????
YEP!
(Batman #634)
Also while he wasn’t as close to her as Steph and his dad obviously, his other friend Darla was shot directly in front of him and also died the same week 💕
(Robin (1993) #129)
I bring her up because all three of these deaths haunt him afterwards in the same nightmare sequence
(Robin (1993) #133)
Is Jason actually good with kids, or is that fanon?
Oh, that's definitely a canon thing. Jason has always cared deeply about children and taken great efforts to protect them. Hell, the first comic he showed up in as Red Hood showed him taking control of Gotham's drug dealers and telling them that if they dealed to kids, they'd be swiftly and painfully murdered.
Batman #635
It can be assumed that the reason Jason's so passionate about protecting children and teenagers is because he himself had a crappy childhood. He had to take care of his drug addict mom, then lived on the streets, and then became a child soldier who died before his sixteenth birthday. Jason knows what it's like to have your childhood taken away, so he does what he can to protect the kids of Gotham. It’s like what Selina said about Bruce that one time: “When you take away the cape and the cowl and the capital ‘T’ in ‘The Batman’...he’s all about protecting the innocent.” Bruce and Jason have this in common.
Batman: Urban Legends #1
Batman: Urban Legends #2
Batman: Urban Legends #6
DCeased: Unkillables #1
Batman Eternal #18
Red Hood: Outlaw Annual #3
Grayson #15
Then there's Jason's relationship with Duela Dent, which I’ve always loved. Jason was the only person who always believed in Duela and genuinely tried to help her, even when she screwed up or seemed "unfixable". No matter how many times she stumbled, he never gave up on her because he has personal experience with needing second, third, and fourth chances. And it worked in the end; Duela gave up the life and went back home to try being a normal girl again.
Red Hood/Arsenal #6
Red Hood/Arsenal #6
Red Hood/Arsenal #9
Red Hood and the Outlaws (2016) #50
Red Hood and the Outlaws (2016) #50
Jason has a similar relationship with Bizarro, treating him with respect and understanding even when everyone else saw him as a monster. Jason saw Bizarro for who he was: a creature with a childlike mentality who deserved his own life, rather than the weapon everyone else thought he was.
Red Hood and the Outlaws (2016) #3
Red Hood and the Outlaws (2016) #4
Red Hood and the Outlaws (2016) #7
(The only exception is Damian, who Jason is not afraid to bodyslam into the ground lmao.)
Batman and Robin (2011) #11
Teen Titans (2016) Annual #1
Canon basis for Tim being worried that he can be booted from the Bats!
Post No Man’s Land, Jack is sending Tim to a boarding school, Brentwood. It’s still in the mainland suburbs that feed Gotham, and Tim could have been a day student, but Jack is making him board because of Tim’s repeated (Robin related) running away from home incidents. So Tim already has “if I screw up, my dad (figure) will reject me,” lurking in his brain.
Before the first day, Batman intercepts Robin coming home (from stopping a robbery with Spoiler), and we get this exchange in issue 74 of Robin 1993:
Weiterlesen
Glad to see that Tim being a giant Dick Grayson fanboy is finally being highlighted again, and sparking more discussion especially on their early relationship! (Please gimme more!!! I love them so much, augh!)
Probably as a result of that surge, there seems to be reciprocal chatter on the topic of how young Tim actually felt towards Jason, too. It's honestly pretty interesting, because it's more nuanced than it appears at first glance.
Which means it's very fun to dissect! ✨
There's a degree of subjectivity to keep in mind, because readers are going to have different interpretations of the same scenes, or will pull from entirely different scenes than one another to form their individual view on this topic. That's just how it is in comic book fandom, for many things! Regardless, in this case... if the scale ranges from the extreme of "Jason was Tim's Robin" to the other extreme of "Tim actually hated Jason [as Robin] or thought he was a loser that got himself killed" — the actual truth is closer to the middle, as is often the case.
At least, in my opinion.
Mainly I want to focus on those relatively early days with this post, to highlight Tim's initial(-ish) feelings towards his heroes, and touch on the point at which they really begin to change. This turned into a very long post, though. Brevity is beyond my skill, so grab snacks and water lol. Transcripts for each image will be posted at the very end under the cut.
So, the two storylines I want to cover are "Rite of Passage," which is rolls into "Identity Crisis." (NOT to be confused with the major crossover event "Identity Crisis™" which came years later, and is where Jack Drake dies.... But it sure is an interesting coincidence that Tim deals with the loss of each parent in two similarly named stories!) These take place before Tim is even Robin, and I'll be considering them as one arc for this post.
Detective Comics vol. 1 #618 (July, 1990) -- Pages 1 & 2
"When Gotham needed him, he was there. When the Batman needed him, he was there. He was a hero."
"One day, I'll be as good as Jason. One day I'll wear the suit."
To start off, we have this opening from "Rite of Passage." Tim is still in training here, mainly helping Bruce with minor stuff from the cave. His parents are off traveling, alive and well as of these next few pages. He's still bright-eyed and full of wonder. An extraordinarily weird but ultimately innocent kid.
So his view on Jason is positive and fairly simple: a hero, and someone to look up to as Robin. Clearly, Tim here doesn't think Jason was deficient in his role, either as a protector of Gotham or as Batman's trusted partner.
Moreover, Tim already held Dick in very high regard because he was amazingly skilled before he became Robin. To Tim, that's not something he'll ever be able to achieve. Meanwhile, Jason wasn't like that. He was a regular kid without crazy acrobatic training since practically birth. Yet he still went on to be a hero—which is obviously motivational for Tim who finds himself in similar shoes.
It's true that Tim only ever knew or thought of Jason as Robin, and idolized him in that regard. But that's kind of all that mattered to him at that point, because he was this kid who was utterly star-struck by his heroes. Even if he's technically aware of their shortcomings as people, it's overshadowed by the hero-worship.
It was kind of the same with Bruce as Batman at first. (Which was still enough for Tim to risk life and limb to help his beloved hero, before Bruce even knew his name.) Dick was the only one Tim had any sort of "personal" relationship with beforehand, so there is an extra level of attachment—and hence why it was the nidus for his obsession with Batman. Yet even then, it wasn't like he actually knew anything about Dick as a person until later. Until then, Tim's ideas of him were all he had, too. With Jason, Tim just didn't get to know him at any point before his return (oof), apart from what he heard over the years secondhand (also oof).
Ultimately, it's the loss of innocence—along with the ricocheting bullet that is the unresolved guilt of those around him—that begins to change Tim's perception. Not just of Jason, but of things in general.
Batman vol. 1 #455 (Oct., 1990) -- Page 13
"I know why they do it now. Why they put on the suits, and the masks, and go out into the night. They're angry, they're full of rage. They want to hit back."
Losing his mother was a major shift for Tim, obviously. This is right after the previous storyline, and Tim's had the worst week or two of his life (so far). His monologue here is a reference to what happened to both Dick and Jason. The unbearable pain of loss, the rage masking the grief underneath. And importantly, that he feels both of them were justified in their anger. (And Bruce too, indirectly.)
The major theme of the aptly named "Identity Crisis" is to mirror aspects of Dick and Jason and Tim's lives—to show how they converged onto the same tragic road. It's something that Tim notices early in the story, and was frightened by. Now, horrifically, it's become a part of him as well. His parents are gone, and he was entirely helpless to do anything about it. Dick was the same way, Jason was the same way. The cycle is repeated.
In particular, the part about him wanting to go to Haiti for revenge—for his mother—sort of struck me as being an intentional parallel to Jason and Ethiopia. It's a bit of a stretch, especially in isolation, so others may see it differently (e.g. the angry ramblings of a grieving child that does sound like something anyone might say). But it always stuck out to me because of how much Tim is compared directly to Jason in this arc. More on that below.
It's not something I can really give an accurate feel of because it's a lot of subtle things that begin to add up, so I'd encourage folks to read this arc themselves to see what I mean. (Or maybe you'll still disagree which is fine too lol.) Again, many things are in reference to both Dick and Jason in relation to Tim, but it's weighted more on Jason's side.
Batman vol. 1 #455 (Oct., 1990) -- Page 18
"You think my anger will boil over, the way Jason's did. I can assure you, it won't!"
Tim's grief has begun to pull away the veil of idealism that enshrouded his heroes in his mind. It doesn't apply only to Jason, but to the rest of them. Plus add the fact that Tim's keenly aware that he's being managed, even if the adults around him are careful to not outright say certain things. He still knows.
Bruce, Dick, and Alfred are all worried about Tim potentially turning into "another Jason." They (and mainly Bruce) caution Tim to not ignore his emotions, but they're still concerned that he may be overly eager to prove himself in order to cope, and could get hurt or killed as a result. While they aren't wrong for their caution—especially at how unsettlingly similar all the circumstances are—they aren't very subtle about the elephant in the room.
Imagine how that would affect Tim's perception of his predecessor, especially when he's in the midst of a traumatic event he hasn't had time to fully process. The negative association is pretty much inevitable.
Tim's known from day one that he's walking in Jason's shadow, and now it's become inescapable. Tim went from seeing Jason as a goal to reach, to feeling that unless he surpasses him, he wasn't going to be taken seriously by anyone. However, as of this arc, Tim doesn't even fully come to that point yet.
Batman vol. 1 #456 (Nov., 1990) -- Pages 14 & 15
"Drop-outs don't make it. And dead heroes are no use to anyone!"
It's really easy to take away "Tim totally thought Jason got himself killed" as the main thing here, but I think that's missing the forest for the trees.
First some context: Bruce has gone out on a mission to get Scarecrow, and expressly forbade Tim from doing any shenanigans. Meanwhile, Tim is grappling with wanting to prove himself and trying to help Bruce from the cave, all while trying to deal with his emotions. At some point, he falls asleep and ends up having like... exhaustion-grief hallucinations of Dick!Robin and Jason!Robin who confusingly caution yet encourage him. The main theme of this part is facing your fears.
Depending on how you want to interpret the intent of Jason's dialogue here, you could go several ways with it. Ranging from "writer's feelings towards Jason" to "a peek into Tim's mind as his fears manifest as visions of his heroes" or some mixture thereof.
Though Tim argues with Bruce that Batman needs a Robin, we're shown that Tim is understandably scared of joining Batman's "war." He's still not willing to let Bruce go it alone, though, and that's something he feels more strongly than his fear.
Meanwhile, hallucination!Jason's warnings are a lamentation of what happened to him in a way, but it actually exactly describes Tim's current situation even more so. Unlike Jason, Tim is under-trained, under-experienced, doesn't even have a suit of his own yet. But like Jason, he can't sit by and do nothing while someone he cares about is in danger. Tim knows that if he goes out there, he will probably get himself killed, and it will be his own fault. So he's about to disobey Batman's orders, and fly right into danger. If that got Jason killed, then Tim—who is in a way worse position experience-wise—has every chance of ending up the same.
Like... it's about Jason, but it's also about Tim. It's Tim's worst fears made manifest, via the representation of why he is even here in the first place (Jason's death).
That's my theory anyway, but perhaps this is an overly charitable reading of this scene on my end. (Not that I think that makes me wrong lol.) However given that Grant wrote both parts of this arc, and the beginning of which is especially favorable towards Jason, it certainly is something to ponder. I have a lot of thoughts on it I can't expand on here tbh but perhaps that'll be another post.
Anyway, returning to the point of the similarities vs differences between Tim and Jason: since this is the arc that solidified Tim as the next Robin in comic continuity, it makes sense that the writers really pushed the comparisons between the two of them, specifically. (Even though Dick was pretty similar, as going against Batman's orders is the Robin thing to do, it's not his shoes Tim is directly filling.) So making Tim's "debut" story arc mirror Jason's "swansong" is an obvious narrative choice.
To drive home the parallels, I wanted to include this panel from just a few pages prior to the "daydream":
Batman vol. 1 #456 (Nov., 1990) -- Page 9
"The suit is magic."
That so distressingly close to Jason's famous "being Robin gives me magic" line (Batman #385, page 6). Given all the previous context, it's hard for me to just dismiss it as pure coincidence. Even if it is, the point still stands. Tim is shown having the some of the same heartbreakingly naive views as Jason once did, right in front of Jason's memorial, just as he's about to go and run off into the night against orders.
I think that speaks for itself. There's a lot to take away from it, if you so choose. Especially given the context of that specific Jason arc.
Alright, back to the main course:
So in the end, Tim actually goes out in civvies and a ski mask because if he fails, then at least he wouldn't bring shame to Robin's legacy™. When he gets fear gassed saving Batman, it's once again both Dick and Jason that he hallucinates encouraging him to push past his fear. (Shout out to the fact that he's literally more afraid of tarnishing the legacy of Batman & Robin than he is of dying.... I'm sure this will not be a recurring thing for him in the future.)
Tim's ideology is shown to be similar to Jason's, and the actions Tim ultimately takes are similar to Jason's... but the outcome is different. And it really isn't just "Tim succeeded where Jason failed." At least, that's not what I took away from this. Rather, Tim had no reason to succeed any more than he had to fail, just that he did. Luck combined with caution because he knew what happened to his predecessor, and the fact that Batman was there to finish the job all made the difference.
You could say (and I know some will) that it's just classic Jason character assassination and the writers trying to implore readers that this new kid is different we promise pls don't hate us look how much better he is! But in this case, that feels like it undermines the whole point of this story. It doesn't fit with what the characters actually say.
Thus, we return to the question of how Tim felt towards his predecessor. And the answer is different from where we started, because Tim is different. Not that different though. Because even though at this point Tim—like all the adults around him—has probably attributed Jason "going off on his own" being what led to his death, Tim still thought of him as a hero to look up to. It's about Robin, first and foremost, yes. But Tim is fully aware of the people who made that suit mean what it does, because it's all intertwined.
Batman vol. 1 #457 (Dec., 1990) -- Page 20
"I mean--Dick made it into a symbol the whole world knows. Jason gave his life for it."
Even further, Tim thinks of it in terms of Jason having given his life for what he believed in, for the legacy that now falls to Tim. There's a sense of gravitas there. He's afraid of failing both the Robins who came before him.
Ultimately do I think Tim adored and loved Jason on the same level as Dick or something? No. It's not comparable. (Dick was like part of some of Tim's earliest memories and everything! They have a really unique bond ok.) Yet Tim was also far from thinking poorly of Jason so early on. Frankly, it seems that Tim thought of Jason as a noble hero and a cautionary tale. Yes he took risks and sometimes went too far, generally stuff that Tim doesn't want to repeat and all that. At the same time, Tim still saw him as someone whose legacy and memory was worth honoring.
It's complicated, which is why I like it so much—because it feels real. Having conflicting feelings towards someone is... so human. Especially someone you never got to know, yet who plays such an integral role in your life via the shadow of their death. How can you feel anything but complicated towards them?
It has to be said that, yes, Tim's views—even before Jason's return—change over the years. He becomes more jaded as a person and is surrounded by people who are even more jaded than him... and who often mention Jason as the "failed Robin." It's something that's hung over Tim's head all the damn time. The curse of the Robin mantle.
So it shouldn't come as a surprise that Tim's idea of him becomes more akin to "sounds like a skill issue" as the years go by. All bets are off after Jason's return, and the Titans Tower Incident™. At that point it's firmly "I am better than you, loser" lmao.
And... that's all without getting too into things like authorial intent and general "moods" of different DC writers towards Jason at a given point. Or retcons that played a role in his characterization and how other characters talk about him, depending on what "era" you're reading. That's way beyond the scope of this post though!
TLDR; even though young Tim Drake was obsessed with Dick Grayson as Robin, he still looked up to Jason Todd as well. He didn't think of Jason as a cringefail loser until later. :)
(image dialogue transcripts under cut ↓)
Dialogue Transcript for Image 1 (Detective Comics vol. 1 #618 -- Page 1):
Narration box (Tim): When Gotham needed him, he was there. When the Batman needed him, he was there. He was a hero.
Dialogue Transcript for Image 2 (Detective Comics vol. 1 #618 -- Page 2):
(Scene continued from previous page)
Narration box: But he was nothing special, really. Just a boy, who was taught--trained--brought to his full potential by someone who knew how. Just a boy... like me. I know I can do it. I know I can. One day I'll be as good as Jason. One day I'll wear the suit. One day I'll be a hero.
Dialogue Transcript for Image 3 (Batman vol. 1 #455 -- Page 13):
Tim: I hate him! I hate him! I know why they do it now. Why they put on the suits, and the masks, and go out into the night. They're angry. Full of rage. They want to hit back. They want to fill the hole that's burning inside them.
Bruce: There's more to it than that, son. Much more.
Tim: I know. It's just--I feel--like going to Haiti myself and strangling that creep with my bare hands!
Bruce: The Obeah Man will spend the rest of his life in a prison hospital. He's history. Forget him! But don't fight against your anger. It's natural. Accept it. Live with it. One day it'll be your friend.
Dialogue Transcript for Image 4 (Batman vol. 1 #455 -- Panels from page 18):
Tim: Because you think my mother's death has upset me too much. Well, it did. But I've taken your words to heart. I can cope. You think my anger will boil over, the way Jason's did. I can assure you, it won't. But that doesn't make any difference, does it? Why can't you have a little faith in me?
Dialogue Transcript for Image 5 (Batman vol. 1 #456 -- Page 14):
Narration box (Tim): Blast it! My head's starting to swim. I'm about ready to give up. I almost wish I'd never heard of Batman and Robin!
Vision Dick: Heroes never give up, Tim.
Vision Jason: You know that.
Tim: Dick--! Jason Todd!
Vision Dick: You're training to fight in a war, Tim. It'll last all your life. No matter what, you have to go on fighting.
Vision Jason: Drop-outs don't make it. And dead heroes are no use to anyone! I thought I knew better than Batman. I thought I could run before I could walk. I killed myself, Tim. Because I couldn't wait. Because I couldn't think it through.
Dialogue Transcript for Image 6 (Batman vol. 1 #456 -- Page 15):
(Scene continued from previous page)
Vision Dick: Think, Tim. Concentrate!
Vision Jason: You can do it.
Both: You can do it!
Tim, waking up: What--? Robin...?
Narration box (Tim): I must have been daydreaming. They're right, though. There's a solution to everything. I can find it! So here I go again... Whim. Caprice. Doing something without forethought.
Dialogue Transcript for Image 7 (Batman vol. 1 #456 -- Panel from page 9):
Narration box (Tim): The suit is magic. It gives you power. It hides your weakness. It makes you give it everything you've got. It makes you a hero. If only I could!
Dialogue Transcript for Image 8 (Batman vol. 1 #457 -- Page 20):
Bruce: Are you afraid of it?
Tim: No. It isn't fear. It's more... the suit carries so much history. I mean--Dick made it into a symbol the whole world knows. Jason gave his life for it. Failing them--what they fought so hard to build--that's what worries me!
Bruce: I appreciate that, Tim. That costume weighs a whole lot more than any symbol should... and I'd be failing you if I expected you to bear that weight. So... let me know what you think.
Narration box: A mask has a double edged, he said. It hides your own anxiety as it strikes fear into your enemy.
Hi! Thoughts on Dick and Tim during Murderer/Fugitive, and their argument over whether Bruce killed Vesper?
(My interpretation was that to Dick, Robin means not only unwavering loyalty to Batman, but unwavering faith (“I’m dismayed that there can be a Robin who believes Batman could be guilty of murder”)— whereas to Tim it’s more about having faith in the symbol and the mission, not the person)
Tim (suspicious that Bruce has emotional blind spots and is about to get a case wrong): Nightwing. Channel Two. Go discreet. (Gotham Knights 1)
Dick: I don't - I don't see how you can say that and still wear that uniform... Tim: The guy who gave it to me–the guy who wore it first–HE taught me never to back away from any possibility that might lead to the truth. And he still believes that… right? (Gotham Knights 26)
Ooh, look, it’s one of my favorite comics of all time. <33
Yeah!! I think hmmm. Both Dick and Tim are intensely loyal to Bruce and they both care about him a lot. But they do think about their loyalty to him in very different ways.
Also tl;dr I am biased here but also I am right dsfsfs - although I do think that Tim's loyalty is kinda to the symbol, I also think a big part of the issue here is that Tim's more unambiguous personal faith is given to Dick, not to Bruce. When Dick says, How can you wear that uniform and not have faith in Bruce, Tim answers, essentially, I wear this uniform because I have faith in you. Which is not what Dick wants to hear!
I had SO MANY THOUGHTS about this, so below the cut:
Dick and Bruce and the importance of faith
Tim and Bruce and the importance of doubt
More rambling Dick-and-Tim-and-Bruce thoughts
Dick and Bruce and faith
Dick’s notion of loyalty is pretty firm: “It's no secret Batman and I have had our... issues. But I won't be involved in anything that hurts him.” His connection to Bruce, from the very beginning, is all about their shared sense of mission: the oath in the candlelight. Dick’s got this intense loyalty that he feels he owes to Bruce, and he feels betrayed when it seems like Bruce isn’t reciprocating, because as far as Dick’s concerned they owe it to each other.
I think you owe me an explanation, Bruce. ... We were the Dynamic Duo, don’t you remember? / If Bruce Wayne doesn’t exist, who am I the son of? / I know you have to live through restraint. I understand how brevity is your moral compass. But why lie to me, of all people? Why would you lie to me. ME. ... I trust you more than anyone. / I've trusted Batman with my life since I was eight. / On top of everything, he's my father now, too... I want to hit people just for thinking bad thoughts about him.
Dick’s first experience of Bruce is fighting by his side. He initially conceptualizes his role of Robin as about being steadfast partners to each other, and although he'll sometimes later recategorize it as a kid's role, that doesn't change the way he thinks of his own relationship to Bruce: partners, no matter what.
Dick fights with Bruce a lot - he'll pick a physical fight in this very arc! He's not afraid to stand up to Bruce! He wants to be independent and bristles when he feels bossed around or ignored or when Bruce is dismissive or doesn't listen or doesn't call on him for help! But paradoxically, he stands up to Bruce because he has faith in him. Dick respects Bruce enough to confront him and he expects Bruce to offer him the same respect in return. He'll pour out his heart to Bruce because despite everything, some part of him expects Bruce to have an answer, to step up, to be the person Dick's determined to believe he can be.
Tim and Bruce and doubt
By contrast, Tim initially interacts with Bruce like a detective stalking a criminal. He collects newspaper reports. He follows Bruce and takes photos of him and gathers evidence to present to Dick. He goes to talk to Dick, not Bruce, about Bruce’s problems—and Tim will pretty consistently continue to talk about Bruce to Dick (or occasionally to Alfred), to work behind Bruce’s back, to be frank with Dick in ways that he’s not frank with Bruce. Tim’s often at pains to insist that he does respect and care about Bruce, but one of the reasons he has to keep insisting this verbally is because his actions and assumptions suggest a lack of trust.
Tim’s first experience of Bruce is of someone who could be a knight or a monster, who needs help and intervention, who can be loved but not entirely trusted. Someone who isn’t gonna be okay on his own; someone who needs saving and fixing; someone whose sense of himself can’t be entirely trusted or listened to. Batman needs a Robin. No matter what he thinks he wants.
In New Titans 71, Wolfman writes Dick musing about Tim as a Robin and how he’s different from Dick himself, and thinking, “He questions more.” Much later, in Teen Titans/Outsiders, Kory will note the same difference. Which is a funny thing to write given all Dick’s fights with Bruce—but I also think it’s a true insight! Tim’s default is questioning. Almost his entire tenure as Robin is spent as Bruce's apprentice, not his kid, and that affects his attitude a lot. He never takes his trust in Bruce for granted. It’s carefully considered—and it could be revoked. A part of Tim is always judging and measuring Bruce, deciding which qualities he thinks are admirable and which ones not so much, what's worrisome and what's not, analyzing whether Bruce is looking after his health or not, etc etc.
You have to promise me something. You'll listen to Alfred and at least call it a night and give yourself a chance to heal. / How many times are we going to have this conversation, Bruce? You died tonight. For almost two minutes you were dead. / Maybe Batman doesn't need to know about this. / He's a hard guy to get to know. / I have friends. He has... associates. / Bruce has been on the job the longest. It’s slowly driven him mad and eaten the human part right out of him. / My boss - my teacher is gone, gone as in fled, but also gone out of his head. And now he may be a murderer as well. / I think maybe Batman has gone crazy. / Don't like the risks he's taking. Don't like the way he spoke to me. I hope it's the concussion talking. I don't want to think his edge is coming back.
It’s not that Dick never worries about Bruce in this way. He does! In the arc right before Lonely Place of Dying, his inner monologue compares Bruce to an alcoholic. And IMO it’s strongly implied in Gotham Knights 26 (the Dick-and-Tim fight about Bruce maybe being a murderer) that one of the reasons Dick is so forceful and so upset by Tim’s suggestion is that he’s suppressing his own private doubts. Tim’s dragging into the open something that Dick is refusing to look closely at. Dick's faith is an act of will—if I’m going to be Bruce’s ally, then I can’t believe he’s capable of this. I can’t allow myself to believe it. And if I believe he’s capable of it, then I’m not acting as his ally anymore:
Dick: "I think it’s… admirable that you can continue serving a system in which you have so little faith. But I can’t. I can’t, Tim. I cannot believe that Batman is guilty of murder. I do not believe it, and I will not believe it. And I can’t stand with anyone who does."
You don't get this upset about somebody saying that the Earth is flat, you know? Dick's not laughing the accusation off; instead, he's drawing a hard line - I will not consider this. I refuse to go there. The topic is off-limits.
(In the same comic, you've got a similar fight going on between Alfred and Leslie with similar stakes - Alfred refusing to believe it but clearly harboring secret doubts, Leslie openly suspicious.)
General Dick-and-Tim-and-Bruce thoughts
Tim to friends: "I lie to Batman" (Teen Titans 3) Dick to Bruce: "But why lie to me, of all people? Why would you lie to me. ME." (Outsiders 21)
It’s always been Tim’s instinct to strategize around Bruce rather than with him. Tim will lie and circumvent Bruce’s orders, whereas Dick will disagree to his face. Dick respects Bruce enough to give him his say and argue back, whereas Tim tends to think of Bruce as an admired-but-unstable figure who you sometimes listen to but sometimes plan around.
And I think you get the core of that in this arc!
Tim voices his concerns pretty frankly to Dick, but is way more circumspect in front of Bruce, because he doesn't entirely trust Bruce - Tim thinks "is Bruce stable and trustworthy" is "a decision that Dick and I will make in consultation with each other," not a decision that Bruce can make.
In the past, Dick has basically gone along with this kind of thing - he and Tim gossip about Bruce a lot! So it's not surprising that Tim's first thought is that they can confer on it again. But when it becomes a question of "is Bruce murderous, criminal, immoral," then Dick's loyalty kicks in. That's too serious an accusation for Dick to feel entirely comfortable talking about it behind Bruce's back.
Generally IMO, how Dick conceptualizes his loyalty tends to vary a lot depending on who he's talking to. So e.g. in general, Dick's more likely to gripe about Bruce to Tim than he is to gripe about Bruce to the Titans, because he knows that Tim basically likes Bruce. Tim's Robin! Dick takes for granted that Tim is loyal. So it's not disloyal to complain about Bruce to Tim, because Dick and Tim are both on Bruce's side. Dick complains to Tim about Bruce abruptly summoning them into No Man's Land, but doesn't share the same complaint with the Titans. And that's because the Titans aren't friendly toward Bruce in general, and so bitching to them would be disloyal, would be airing dirty laundry outside the family.
By contrast, Tim's a safe audience... until you end up in a situation like Bruce Wayne: Murderer, when suddenly it sounds like Tim may not be on Bruce's side anymore. What are you saying, Tim?
I do think that if Tim had been right, if Bruce had been a murderer, Dick would've ultimately helped take him down. He's very defensive of Bruce because that's how Dick understands the obligations of loyalty, but... he's part of confronting Bruce and demanding explanations in the Cave, and he and Tim (and Cass and Babs) all investigate Bruce together. I think if there had been very very very credible evidence, Dick would've helped fight to take evil!Bruce down. But I also think he would've never stopped mentally searching for an explanation: mind control? body double? I think he'd have an incredibly hard time accepting that Bruce had just murdered someone.
And I mean! In Dick's defense! I don't think Bruce would! At the end of the day, I think Bruce deserves all kinds of criticism in post-Crisis, but I also tend to think that Dick's read of him is a bit more accurate than Tim's, that even though Bruce can act monstrously in all kinds of ways he is at bottom a person who would never ever ever murder a civilian girlfriend no matter how unstable he got and no matter how threatened his secret was. Dick might have a bit more faith in him than he deserves, but at the same time, Tim's jumping to the worst-case scenario pretty fast here, much as he does during Batman: RIP, and I think you could definitely argue that Dick - who's known Bruce longer and better, who lived with Bruce for years instead of just worked with him - has a better and more instinctive sense of Bruce's strengths instead of just his faults.
(And in Tim's defense, as Babs is about to point out to Dick, Bruce has not been behaving especially well recently and Tim has a lot of reasons to be frustrated with him. And Tim's not the only one - Babs is pretty suspicious too!)
.... And of course, I mean, as a Dick and Tim fan, I love that this arc makes very clear that Tim feels his own loyalty is to the symbol, yes, but also that he associates the symbol with Dick first and with Dick's sense of morals, that he trusts Dick, that he sees the costume as something Dick gave him and that's the legacy that he's trying to live up to, to never walk away from the truth, that he thinks the two of them need to be willing to consider the worst of Bruce .... and also the delightful paradox that this isn't loyalty that Dick asked for or wants or welcomes!!
Dick has always taken for granted that Tim was loyal to Bruce, not to Dick; he's not at all happy to hear the opposite. This isn't a heartwarming moment for them but instead a really fraught one, because it's a declaration of Tim's loyalty but it's a declaration of Tim's loyalty that's specifically about not offering unconditional loyalty to Bruce, so Dick feels like he's being invited to be traitors together instead of feeling touched by Tim's trust. Tim's loyalty is something he has to learn to come to terms with rather than something he's happy to have.
And I think that's great!! I love love love these kinds of complicated emotional dynamics (TM), and Bruce Wayne: Murderer is full of them. It's such a fun read.
Tim Drake’s Friends (not to be confused with Red Robin’s friends)
Inspired by this post by cryptocism, I bring you: Tim Clique-Breaker Drake.
(Don’t mind me, this is also basically just me taking notes for a fic I’m working on. Tim’s various normal boy friendships. High School Musical has nothing on Tim Drake.)
(One of these days I’ll write half these characters’ DC Database entries. Today is not that day. All characters listed know Tim primarily as Tim Drake; anyone who knows Tim primarily as Robin/Red Robin, or who know Tim equally as Tim and Robin, is not included. If I miss someone… I missed someone.)
Weiterlesen
How could u make something so simple yet beautiful op? Why did squares make me emotional? 😭💕
Untitled.
i made a comic in google slides for some ungodly reason
Got shivers down my spine op *brrrr*
Whalefall, or What If The Ocean Was Haunted?