@diva35801@watersho3sPlease Reblog If You Want Answer Just For Practicality, It Makes Things Easier To

@diva35801 @watersho3s Please reblog if you want answer just for practicality, it makes things easier to read and discuss. Because I’d love to see different view points of this. So @diva35801 you said: We gotta stop seeing microaggressions as anything less than what they are. We don't touch people without permission. When dollar store Cap touched Ago, it was an act of aggression. He did so because of his perceived position of power. He got exactly what he deserved. Let's also note that being bested by women (Black no less) were what pushed him over the edge. What does that say? 

And @watersho3s You added: exactly!!!! People forget all the bs the Wakandans have dealt with. The fact that Zemo (a terrorist) was allowed to serve time in prison instead of paying with his life was already more than generous. They also help Bucky, a killing machine that could have been activated at any time who also worked for a white supremacist organization. He is sheltered and treated in their country, as a favor for a man that opposed the same legislation that their country supported. Even after decades

Of having their most valued natural resources stolen, they freely give this same person a new prosthetic/weapon of the same material. He uses his freedom, which they helped him achieve, to free the man who ended up destabilizing their country. AND THEN THEY GAVE HIM 8 HOURS TO RETURN HIM TO CAPTIVITY (this is compromise #2). Zemo’s crime was against Wakanda, primarily, so they were right to try taking him into custody. The Dora Milaje, as non-super powered guards to a king, have diplomatic 

Immunity. Everyone else, does not; including Walker. As soldiers in the US military, Walker and Hoskins would be very aware that touching a armed force member of another country is considered engagement, when you don’t have permission; this should go doubly since they are also opposing each other.

Anyways, Bucky took up arms against the Dora Milaje, stopping them from putting away the terrorist that killed their King and destabilized their country, and they rightfully stopped him. 

And I’d like to answer to that. @diva35801

You did not in any way contridict anything I said by mentioning Walkers micro agressions, that is completly correct, but I suppose I didn’t make it clear enough. It was touching without permission and it was an act of agression and he did it to showcase power. BUT the spear throw before that came unprovoced at HIM. If the spear was thrown at Bucky or Zemo that would have been different, but the DM and Walker had zero interactions with each other before this and they just threw a spear at him. I don’t like Walker either, but he wasn’t the one that escalated the fight. Ayo could have just pushed him back or even if she did fight him they tried to spear both Walker and Hoskins (who they had even less reason to fight, because the only thing he did in the whole scene was helping his friend and getting instantly his ass beaten). And they came down with the spear when both were on the ground already.

Did Walker deserve his ass beaten? Sure. Does he have underlying issues of sexism and racism? Absolutly. But that wasn’t what this discussion was about, it was about Bucky and Ayo and not Captain Fakemericas issues that led to this fight. I only put it in it make it clear that no act of aggression came from Bucky in this scene but from Walker and the way Ayo handled the situation with him.

If this wasn’t Walker but some character we liked we wouldn’t be like: well for putting his arm in a condescending way on her should without her permission he deserves to get scewered. I am not saying that Ayo does have no reason to beat his ass, but to kill/seriously injure? Definitly not. And again that first spear throw was completly unprovoked by Walker. @watersho3s

I thought I made it clear that Ayo and the DM were completly within their right to come for Zemo and take him and Ayo agreed to the 8 hours, after which they came to take him, but apperently that wasn’t the case. But you are absolulty correct with the reasoning behind that and everything, I just didn’t bother writing down Wakandas recent history because I figured that it was obvious that the DM are right by wanting Zemo back imprisoned. Sam and Bucky told Walker they weren’t going to hand Zemo over to him but they never said anthing to the DM about not handing Zemo over to them. They probably wanted to keep him and discuss this, which isn’t ok after Ayo already agreed to letting them keep Zemo for now, but again the DM did not know about this.

So I couldn’t find anything right away about the thoughts on death pentality in Wakanda, but T’challa himself let Zemo live and be imprisoned. Not some American white guy out of nowhere, but their king whose wishes they surely accept even if they probably do not like them whatsoever.

I am not sure why you said: “this same person” when it came to stolen Vibranium, because while both the Vibranium of the shield and the original arm got stolen it wasn’t Bucky that was part of either of that (neither was Walker, who definitly does not get the issue behind that anyways). Bucky had a perfectly fine arm until Hyrda cut it off and gave him the Vibranium arm. And neither is Bucky at fault for getting brainwashed from Hydra or had anything to do with T’Chaka’s death other than being Zemos scape goat.

And as I already said in my original post: the DM have every right and reason to take Zemo. That wasn’t even up for discussion for every reason you mentioned.

And diplomatic immunity gives you right to free passage and makes you not suspectible for lawsuits and prosecution but it doesn’t make you in charge where you are.

My militariy knowledge about touching armed forces from another country are not good enough to deny or agree to the laws about that and I couldn’t find anything about it, so I’m just going to believe you because it sounds very reasonable (but if you’ve got a source, I’d love to know, I am interested in this) to push Walker back on those grounds, but not to try to kill/seriously injure Hoskins, who had to be saved by Sam and only engaged in Combat AFTER the DM started fighting physically.

“Anyways, Bucky took up arms against the Dora Milaje, stopping them from putting away the terrorist that killed their King and destabilized their country, and they rightfully stopped him. “ So this is where my whole issue about my op comes up.

-Bucky did nothing but defend himself and Walker (after Sam told him to)

-They have every right to put Zemo away.

-Bucky did not stop them from putting Zemo away from their perspective. They came, wanted Zemo, Walker made a mess and Zemo escaped, none of that was Buckys involvement.

-They rightfully stopped him

-> This is exactly what my op was about: he didn’t need to be stopped because he didn’t attack. Walker attacked verbally and touched Ayo, the DM threw a spear at Walker and tried to kill/main Walker and Hoskins and then Bucky and Sam went in to stop that. Both didn’t attack the DM and Bucky in his fight with Ayo used nothing but self defense. Stopping to attack Bucky would have stopped Bucky from that.

That dis-arm-ing discussion

Just a quick reminder of what actually happend in TFATWS Episde 4 before you jump to conclusions. The following thing happend:

-Ayo and Bucky made a deal, Bucky has 8 hours until they have to hand over Zemo, they both agreed to said deal. -Walker invites himself over and demands Zemo. He’s willing to talk about it and puts the shield down. -Right then one of the Dora Milaje throws a spear towards Walker, who they have no buisness with in the first place and that could have killed Walker. -Ayo rightfully demands Zemo back. -Walker demands they disarm and talk about this, Sam a little more sensible interveens. -Walker starts the whole discussion about who’s jurisdiction this is and Ayo says the Dora Milaje have jurisdiction whereever they are. -Walker with his very offputting way does this ment to be friendly hand to shoulder move and is still talking about having a rough start when Ayo attacks him. And not just slightly push him back or take his hand of, she straight up attacks him and throws him around. -The fight between Walker, Hoskins and the Dora Milaje starts and the other 3 do not inverveen at the beginning. -Bucky only gets involved after Sam asks him to and then he uses his vibranium arm to stop the spear that Ayo was about to put into Walker. She either tried to kill or seriously injure him in a fight she started with him. -Bucky uses his flesh arm to stop Ayo from attacking him and asks her to talk about this.

-Hoskins gets his ass beaten by the DM and Sam only gets in after one of them tries to spear Hoskins and Sam not once attacks the DM, only defends himself against her attacks.

-Zemo being smart uses this to get away.

-One DM traps Walker and stops him from fighting.

-Bucky and Ayos fight consists only of him blocking with his vibranium arm against her vibranium weapon and using no super strenght to attack her. And then she disables his arm. My thoughts about it are under the cut:

Weiterlesen

I think a big part of this is also the fact that Zemo isn’t a villain to the world, he is specifically a villain to the avengers, supersoldiert and pretty much any sign of people seeing themselves as superior and acting on it.

If we’d encounter someone like Zemo in the real world he wouldn’t be a threat to us.

Meet Thanos, he might kill you, he might kill half the population of your planet, snap your parents, your dog and your best friend. Meet Mysterio who’d sacrifice you for his goals if you are unlucky to be in the wrong place. Ultron wanted to destory mankind, Ego wanted to take over planets, Hela Asgard both with gigantic casulaties.

Zemo? Zemo wanted the Avengers gone and killed a King for it.

Specfically the last part is very understanding, considering how many people we see cheering on the death of any other member of the 1% recently.

zemo in the latest ep was so good. like. the quiet '>:3' energy he has is really funny (the part where walker locked him up screamed 'kinky :) but alright :) i'll allow it :)') , and the way he just??? lay there??? with an ice pack??? after getting knocked tf out is so hilarious and melodramatic to me.

also ik that some ppl took the 'baa baa black sheep' scene to be kind of creepy and they're not wrong per se, but zemo was a father! his main motivation for destroying the avengers was his family! man's just rustee with children. also 'my associate' being a fucking eight year old is fucking hilarious. zemo is absolutely the type of person to sit one of those tiny plastic chairs at a child's tea party and take it very seriously, absolutely throwing in some gossip from the toys to make the kid laugh. 'yes ms bear, your tea is quite delicious. but how could mr crocodile say that about your cookies? it's not like he's any better than you at baking, not after that incident with his wife.'

also,,, we haven't seen that memorial scene from the trailer yet,,,, Owie,,,,,,

YES YES YES EXACTLY

also can i just say that i love ALL of the little details shown with zemo here… like not only the visual ones (him w a cookie around his finger, necklace, etc) but also his behavioural details ?? like for one i’m in LOVE with his head tilt and how, when sam calls him out on it, he has this realization moment that he even has a tic like that in the first place and that he uses it when he’s trying to manipulate/taunt … and he immediately stops with the head tilt. did u also notice how zemo’s tapping his fingers in one of the scenes where he’s handcuffed? it’s nothing big but i find it kinda cute 😭

i also really like how, even though his emotions and expressions are very hard to put into context and even figure out – you can practically SEE him thinking. thinking and studying and understanding and analyzing situations and other people. and in one of the scenes where zemo is talking to the little girl, he gets this blank look in his eyes. as i said before, it’s hard to really understand his little behaviours and expressions, but to me it looks like he’s getting kind of “out of it” and maybe remembering his son.

anyway … i love zemo so much and that memorial scene is gonna kill me

I started with the show, loved Dabi and the fandom version of him, started reading the manga and bam! Spinner was my favourite character and I noticed that Dabi really isn’t the way a huge part of the fandom portrays him to be.

tbh Spinner is everything that fandom wanted Dabi (and Shiga/Dabi) to be, like??

de facto second-in-command of the League

Very loyal to Shigaraki Tomura, will follow him to the ends of the earth and beyond

has empathy cares a lot for his leader, and the League as well

related strongly with Shigaraki when Shigaraki revealed his backstory

connected with Shigaraki over the shared emptiness in their hearts

gave Toga a "big-brother-esque" talk that revealed his concern over her while also encouraging her

implied strongly to have hung out with Shigaraki as friends

but Spinner (and the fact that he exists) just isn't acknowledged as such. RIP

That dis-arm-ing discussion

Just a quick reminder of what actually happend in TFATWS Episde 4 before you jump to conclusions. The following thing happend:

-Ayo and Bucky made a deal, Bucky has 8 hours until they have to hand over Zemo, they both agreed to said deal. -Walker invites himself over and demands Zemo. He’s willing to talk about it and puts the shield down. -Right then one of the Dora Milaje throws a spear towards Walker, who they have no buisness with in the first place and that could have killed Walker. -Ayo rightfully demands Zemo back. -Walker demands they disarm and talk about this, Sam a little more sensible interveens. -Walker starts the whole discussion about who’s jurisdiction this is and Ayo says the Dora Milaje have jurisdiction whereever they are. -Walker with his very offputting way does this ment to be friendly hand to shoulder move and is still talking about having a rough start when Ayo attacks him. And not just slightly push him back or take his hand of, she straight up attacks him and throws him around. -The fight between Walker, Hoskins and the Dora Milaje starts and the other 3 do not inverveen at the beginning. -Bucky only gets involved after Sam asks him to and then he uses his vibranium arm to stop the spear that Ayo was about to put into Walker. She either tried to kill or seriously injure him in a fight she started with him. -Bucky uses his flesh arm to stop Ayo from attacking him and asks her to talk about this.

-Hoskins gets his ass beaten by the DM and Sam only gets in after one of them tries to spear Hoskins and Sam not once attacks the DM, only defends himself against her attacks.

-Zemo being smart uses this to get away.

-One DM traps Walker and stops him from fighting.

-Bucky and Ayos fight consists only of him blocking with his vibranium arm against her vibranium weapon and using no super strenght to attack her. And then she disables his arm. My thoughts about it are under the cut:

-The eascalation did come from Ayo and the DM, who attacked Walker twice! He was being an ass as usual, but it did not deserve such a strong attack and definitly not the first speer throw at the beginning, when they only came to take Zemo and had nothing to do with Walker whatsoever (they didn’t even know that Walker wanted Zemo too).

-Also they tried to either kill or seriously injure both Walker and Hoskins (who only got involved after they attacked Walker). -All of them are not in their actual countries jurisdiction, which Walker already saw in Episode 2, but apperently no one told the Dora Milaje.

-Walker is still an ass, who acts like he’s in charage and thinks that people should listen to him, which does not help any situation he’s in.

-Buckys arm can be used as a weapon to attack people, but aside from being very hard to destroy we have seen no evidence that it is stronger than his flesh arm.

-Not telling Bucky about the arm is understandable to a degree, but it shows nonetheless that they have no trust in him about this information.

-There are a lot of practical reasons for the arm to be detachable, but if that was the sole reason it was detachable they could have just told him.

-The fact that Bucky did not know about it just shows that they did install it as a failswitch to stop him if needs be. -This happend AFTER they broke his coding. So either they weren’t sure it worked, were afraid someone might control him again with something else (but then who stops any other person from being mind conrolled with super powers) or they simply do not trust Bucky himself. -Bucky definitly thinks that they do not trust him and that Ayo, who he has a history with does not trust him, because she disabled the arm.

- Bucky has a history of not having control over his body, which Ayo knew very well about. The history of those two is literally Ayo training with Bucky to break his control, meaning he trusts her with complete control over his body. And Ayo took control over his body in a moment where it was not necessairy whatsoever.

-Ayo was the one that told Bucky he was free and she was the one that showed he technically wasn’t by controlling part of his body when she could.

-Bucky did not use his arm as a weapon in this fight even once, he only used it as a defense against the vibranium spears, so Ayo had to reason to disarm him like that. Once the Walker situation was handled (a situation Ayo escalated) she could have just stopped attacking and Bucky would have stopped, he did not want to fight her.

-Ayo literally had no reason to disarm him in this situation. There is no discussion necessairy about taking his weapon away because he never used it as one against her in the first place. -He didn’t even use his super strenght against her, he made it clear he did not want to fight her and she kept attacking.

This is a perfect example of framing done right in writing.

We are first shown that Shoto got abused, but not enough to see the full picture. For all we know at the beginning Endevour seemed to just have trained with Shoto too much, but because Shoto does want to become a hero it doesn’t show as horrible as the actuality of it is.

Then we see him noticing his bad behaviour and wanting to better himself. We see through Natsuo that there is more to it, than just overtraining Shoto, but again we don’t get a clear picture of what that means.

We see him after that in a light of a man who is trying to better himself and does want to be worthy of the title of Hero No. 1. And then we get the real hit of the Toya backstory. Dabi was heavily forshaddowed to be Toya and so was Endevour being more abusive than we already knew.

But we couldn’t fanthom how bad it would be, because we saw his victims starting to cope with it in a going forward and forgiving manner, especially Fuyumi. And since Shoto so far doesn’t even notice himself that he is a victim of abuse we didn’t see how bad Endevour really was.

And then we get this.

If we got this at the beginning we would have just straight up hated Endevour with no nuiance whatsoever, he wouldn’t be seen as a layered character and just as a horrible abuser (which he was to all of his family) and the focus would just be on this one family, instead of the overall picture that the No. 2 Hero can just get away with this.

Because of this excellent done framing we get to see that bigger picture while simultaniously getting important backstory for multiple characters and seeing Endevour just as what he is: an abuser who still hasn’t learned that he can’t seem to grasp that not everything is about him.

Watch me! They have been watching for years and it was a very different picture than what the public and the readers saw and now we finally get the full story.

bnha manga: *tries to make us feel sympathy for enji*

also bnha manga:

Dabi (propping his feet up on the table): If he’s out, I win!

Mustard: Ok, maybe playing ‘whose family was most dysfunctional’ wasn’t the best idea we’ve had. Shigaraki's been crying in the bathroom for an hour. We can’t get him out....