What's Up With The BATB Thing In Jonerys? XD Do You Really Think That They Will Have That Kind Of Vibes

What's up with the BATB thing in Jonerys? XD Do you really think that they will have that kind of vibes in the books?

Its GRRM we are talking about , he lives for this theme!  He is probably the next big fan of this trope after Guillermo Del Toro LOL. Jaime and Brienne? BaTB reverse in aesthetic, Jaime and Cersei? a fluid Beauty and the Beast dynamic. Sansa and Sandor? Literally BaTB by Jean Cocteau played straight. 

So Jonerys would not be any different either considering he has been foreshadowing their meeting since day one. There is a fluid dynamic of “monster” and other going in with both Jon and Dany in the sense that Dany has been called monster, other and witch by her enemies and even at her lowest Dany calls herself “mother of monsters” . But Dany is not those things. She is a mother, one of the most beautiful women known to world, her nature is of a maiden who takes the role of fertility goddess and growth ( planting trees, crops, building irrigation canal in desert , finding a wasteland with peach tree, lemon and moon symbolism everywhere, she rose from ashes and charnal ground to give birth to new life of dragons , symbol of life and fire and freedom which is also a reference to Hindu Goddess Parvati giving birth Ganesha from her own flesh in the abode of charnal ground of her husband Shiv  ) so she is Beauty and have the nature of Beauty archetype.

from Encyclopedia Britannica [1] Shiva and his family at the burning ground. Parvati, Shiva’s wife, holds Skanda

Jon is also called a bastard, an “Other” to Westerosi society who by nature are born traitor and lusty and dishonorable , he has been Othered his entire life. He is also or was in TWOW the Lord Commander of Night’s Watch where there is no growth and no children and hardly any fertility associated plant life. Its stagnation, almost a stand in for underworld. Jon is the “father” of this institution and when he gets resurrected , he would be literally the master of both life and death ( a Hero’s journey stage by Campbell) who , like an otherworldly being can light metal on fire with his blood like Beric Dondorrian , doesn’t need to eat or sleep , his mentality wouldn’t be of a human but would be more feral, like an animal like his direwolf Ghost ( unlike the show, Ghost is a part of him and he would be involeved 50% in keeping Jon alive again since he will house his soul like another warg did with  his warg animal Varamyr) 

So even before they meet their BaTB dynamic is pretty much established from the get go. There is something of, i cannot yet pinpoint how yet because they have not yet met but i feel there would a reference to Frankestein monster with them considering Jon is also given life against the cycle of nature like Creature and Dany also lived when she shouldn’t have when she became the unburned , unlike the lady-creature Victor made for his to be Creature’s companion but destroyed because he couldn’t propagate “abomination” ( a reference to incest but mostly for modern audience) 

There is BaTB vibe for Jonerys even before they met and its basically a sign to look out for all the romantic pairs of this series , since GRRM experiments with it plenty with all of them ( there is an exploration of its various facets and limits with Sansa and Dany especially with their varios “Other” suitors and husbands and betroths like Littlefinger, Willas, Tyrion, Daario, Hizdar, Victorian, Jon, Drogo, Xaro and so on) . 

I made a post about Jon Snow being a Corn King figure here. So, this post references that one heavily. 

The Corn King is a term for a male fertility god/sacred king who dies or is sacrificed for the good of his people to bring fertility or spring back into the land. The Corn King is born at Yule, matures through the year, and dies at harvest, only to be reborn the next year. At Beltane, the Corn King weds an Earth Goddess (an aspect of the Earth Mother). The consummation of their wedding restores fertility to the land.

The king was the incarnation of a dying and reviving god, a solar deity who underwent a mystic marriage to a goddess of the Earth. He died at the harvest and was reincarnated in the spring. Frazer claims that this legend of rebirth is central to almost all of the world’s mythologies. FROM WIKI

I just wanted to make a ship-specific post as we know that Jon and Dany have both been set up as our savior figures to stop the Long Night, restore balance, and bring Spring back again. And, their convergence has been stated has being the point of the series. Does Dany fit the figure of an Earth Goddess, an Earth Mother? The Mother part is easy as Dany is connected to motherhood from the first book and first season onwards. Mhysa means “mother.” She’s the Mother of Dragons.  

Frazer, in The Golden Bough, uses Diana, the Roman moon and nature goddess (who has also been called Light Bringer interestingly) and her symbolic marriage to the priest-king Nemi “the two figuring as King and Queen of the Wood in a solemn marriage which was intended to make the earth gay with the blossoms of spring and the fruits of autumn.” Egyptian kings married their sisters and they impersonated Osiris and Isis in the rites of spring. 

In Barbara L Talcroft’s The Death of the Corn King which is built on Frazer’s The Golden Bough, she says:

Irish texts speak of the banais rigi or “the wedding of the kingship” which probably meant that the queen, who also impersonated the earth goddess,  chose a mate from among her war band and later to become the king-sacrifice. Mac Cana relates the story from Irish literature of King Eochaidh whose kingship was not recognized because his goddess-wife, Edain, had been taken away from him. Mac Cana concludes, “In the context of Irish tradition, the meaning of this is clear. Eochaidh had become king, but his kingship could be validated only by his union with the goddess of sovereignty, in this case, Edain. This union of king and goddess was at one time ritually enacted at the Feast of Tara.”

So, this part is interesting because it’s the Goddess of Sovereignty that gives the king legitimacy. Without her, his kingship is not validated. 

The ceremony so essential to the legitimacy of the king took place at his inauguration and had two parts- some form of drink offered by the goddess-bride to the king and the sexual union

Have I just talked myself into accepting Bran’s legitimacy VO while Jon/Dany are having sex? Heh.

The intricate relationship between king and Goddess, at least in the Celtic tradition, was undoubtedly caused by the conflicting emphases of the patriarchal sun religion represented by the king, and of the matriarchal earth and moon religion represented by the Goddess.

Moon symbology has figured in Daenerys’ story. ‘Moon of my life’ which Drogo called her is only one such example. The dragon creation myth is another. There are a lot of moon references in Dany’s chapters. But, there are even more moon references in Jon’s chapters. The Azor Ahai myth and R’hollorism is filled with sun, moon, and star references too. R’hllor specifically is connected to sun and stars.

“He told me the moon was an egg, Khaleesi, the Lysene girl said. Once there were two moons in the sky, but one wandered too close to the sun and cracked from the heat. A thousand thousand dragons poured forth, and drank the fire of the sun. That is why dragons breathe flame. One day the other moon will kiss the sun too, and then it will crack and the dragons will return.”

Melisandre says to Jon in ADWD  "You should look behind you, Lord Snow. The moon has kissed you and etched your shadow upon the ice twenty feet tall.“

R’hllor,” sang Melisandre, her arms upraised against the falling snow, “you are the light in our eyes, the fire in our hearts, the heat in our loins. Yours is the sun that warms our days, yours the stars that guard us in the dark of night.”

I was researching the Corn King mythology and I found the references to the Earth/Moon (often used interchangeably) Goddess and the role she plays in the Corn King story. It’s not just his death and rebirth that brings fertility to the land, but it’s the consummation of their marriage. I’m not taking this literally for Jon and Dany, but rather, that their partnership will be what helps saves the world and brings Spring again. 

a lot of jonerys antis say that there aren't enough time for jon and dany to have a romance in the last two books what do you think about this ?

"not enough time for romance", what does that even mean?

as far as Canon is concerned, both Jon and Dany will meet in the middle to fulfill their clear destiny in the War of Dawn, and if GRRM doesn't want to make a joke of himself as D&D did, his final antagonist, the literal apocalypse will last at least good months, time in which the two will be brought together and some kind of relationship and dynamic will ensue naturally, not matter its nature

romance doesn't stop happening on the side because other things are going on; does there need to be a romantic plot gated enclosure in the narrative? can't Jon and Dany walk and chew at the same time?

how many "books" did Daenerys need to have a romance with Daario and call it love, with Drogo and call it love? for Jon to have a romance with Ygritte and call it love?

is there a timetable for romance? graphs and checklists? Jon and Dany could meet today and be lovestruck in a day or a week? or they could come together as cold allies and grow over close over sharing the crucial leading experience in a fight of life and death? or they could just be buddies or accept each other as family or just as partners?

but the idea that "time" is decisive in matters such as this? Lol, some people on this site try so hard to appear "high and above" that they no longer appear to seem to understand how a person works

I keep seeing this post by J0nsas, that when Sansa is in the Eyrie and laments that no one will ever marry her for love, the chapter that follows hers is a Jon chapter, as if that is supposed to be foreshadowing.

Well, how about this:

Daenerys I, A Dance with Dragons

Five Aegons had ruled the Seven Kingdoms of Westeros. There would have been a sixth, but the Usurper’s dogs had murdered her brother’s son when he was still a babe at the breast. If he had lived, I might have married him.

And wanna know whose chapter follows directly after this one? That’s right, Aegon Targaryen’s…I mean, Jon Snow. Ohh and what is memorable line from the first page of that Jon chapter?

“Snow,” the moon murmured.

Jon I, A Dance with Dragons

And who do we know who is called the moon? Hmm…I wonder…?

In GRRM’s books, he seems to hold true to the expression of ‘Third time’s the Charm’ and the results are different the third time something happens…

So if we take the Pact of Ice and Fire, which was :

The Pact of Ice and Fire was an alliance between Houses Stark and Targaryen arranged during the Dance of the Dragons.

At the start of the civil war, Prince Jacaerys Velaryon flew to Winterfell to gain House Stark and the North for the cause of his mother, Queen Rhaenyra Targaryen.[1][2]

According to Mushroom, Prince Jacaerys secretly married Lord Cregan Stark’s bastard sister, Sara Snow, which led to the pact. It was agreed that the firstborn daughter of Prince Jacaerys would marry Lord Cregan’s son and heir, Rickon.[3] Lord Roderick Dustin led the Winter Wolves to join the blacks, while House Manderly also contributed knights to Rhaenyra’s side.[1] Lord Cregan himself led a host to King’s Landing near the end of the war, but they arrived after the death of King Aegon II Targaryen.[2] Cregan briefly governed in the capital as Hand of the King during the Hour of the Wolf.[4]Although a royal princess never did marry into the Starks, Cregan gained many rewards for his support of King Aegon III Targaryen.[5]

Then we have Rhaegar and Lyanna and that ended in disaster.

Maybe Jon and Dany will finally make the pact of Ice and Fire and this time they will marry and actually make that alliance official….

Had to answer to that Anon saying Jonerys should have met before. I've always thought what makes Jonerys the greatest couple of all times compared to other narratives is SPECIFICALLY that we, the readers/audience met them way before they did. Usually the story starts with the two heroes meeting /falling in love, here instead we witnessed the 2 heroes' journeys up to their culmination and THEN is when they meet and fall in love (& save the world together)This makes it a unique love story.

This is a great point and I totally agree!