Joejhang - Zoe

andreil outsider pov. i live and BREATHE that shit.

my input into the thea discourse in the aftg fandom

tw: rape, SA, abuse, violence

spoilers ahead !!! full disclosure: these are my opinions and no one is obligated to agree w me but if u don't i'm literally begging u pls explain urself properly in replies or just don't engage. it's rlly not that deep i just can't w mfs who just say shit like "ur wrong" without giving it any real thought and acting mature and explaining their opinion. if ur a hardcore thea hater/lover honestly just do the smart thing and don't even read on. thanks pooks !!!

gotta preface this by saying: i am not a thea hater. she's done a lot of things wrong that i'll go into but i don't have a strong hatred or even dislike for her. that being said i'm fully aware that if there's anything that will get the aftg fandom riled up it's thea muldani or the extra content. one of those.

first off, i'm well aware that thea is very much a victim of the nest, as much as jean or kevin. and also we don't even fully know how deeply thea was entrenched in the shit that went down in the nest, all we know is that she probably didn't abuse kevin or jean the way others did, considering how she interacts w them in tsc. one of the main criticisms i see of thea is how she "handled" the whole situation w riko and kevin and finding out all of riko's abuse. ppl didn't like her "no harm no foul" attitude re: kevin's broken hand. i get this, considering it wasn't rlly "no harm no foul" given the lasting trauma left on kevin from the incident, and also how long he spent recovering. that shit leaves a long-term impact on ppl and riko still remains kevin's abuser, and thea was wrong for considering it to be "no harm no foul" bc there was harm done. that being said, i think ppl need to be aware that the nest was very much a cult, as neil so aptly puts it. and tbh i have had very little experiences w these sort of environments but i do know that the nest's mentality likely had a long-term impact on thea asw. no matter how deep the abuse went w the other ravens, they were all still subject to the deep-rooted competition and fear that everyone experiences in the nest. idk the full extent of it, but it's pretty safe to assume that thea (given how good of a player she is) is pretty deep in all the cult mentality. this isn't an easy thing to just grow out of, and a lot of the brainwashing that went on in the nest probably stuck w thea and contributed to her responses to finding out exactly what happened to jean and kevin in the nest.

one of the things i most dislike abt thea is the whole conversation between her and jean in tsc. i appreciate that she cares about jean and sort of took him under her wing, but i feel like what rlly stuck w me abt it all was the whole "tell me you weren't up to your old tricks again" line. obv this pissed a lot of ppl off in the fandom too, so i'm just gonna say my piece briefly; thea referring to the older ravens repeatedly raping jean on riko's orders as jean's "tricks" is fucked up. she probably didn't know that jean wasn't consenting and she didn't know riko ordered it, but she did know that jean was a child at the time and can't legally give consent, and she did know that it wasn't like he fucked his way up to the top cos he's had his number from the beginning. she was an adult at the time, and should've done more to protect jean. still, it's obvious why she didn't, cos again, she was also a victim of the nest, and was definitely not in the best position to help jean. that being said, her line does imply that it was jean's choice/fault for messing around and the wording is just pretty fucked, so i'm not gonna completely absolve her of any responsibility in this convo just cos she was also a victim.

another thing i see when ppl r responding to thea criticism is referring to the criticism as victim blaming. tbf, a good amount of it probably is, but i think there are still a lot of things to criticise about her, and just dismissing it as "blaming the victim" is a disservice to the ppl trying to make a valid point. stating that the way thea responded to finding out abt riko's abuse towards jean and kevin was wrong and careless isn't victim blaming. victim blaming is, as the term suggests, blaming the victim of a situation for the situation they're in. listen. thea is not a victim of riko's abuse, at least not in the same way jean and kevin are. thea was a victim of the nest, yes, but it's pretty clear that what jean and kevin experienced was out of her hands, and not on the same level (esp jean. idk what rlly went down between kevin and riko before the hand breaking incident). at the end of the day, i think the way thea dealt w the issue of riko and his treatment of kevin and jean was thoughtless, and pretty dismissive. but it also bears remembering that there wasn't much for her to do by the time she found out. riko died shortly afterwards, kevin took his place as the best striker on the court and jean was sent to the trojans to heal and recuperate. her response could've been more...sensitive (i don't think that's the right word but we'll go with it) but still, y'all will complain, but what was she supposed to do? nora already stated that she was angry at riko, but riko died soon after and other than her anger, there was nothing else for thea to do in her response.

lastly, another argument levelled at thea is re her relationship w kevin. i actually am not sure abt their age gap (i think kevin was 15 and thea was 18 when they first met???) but i do know that their relationship didn't start properly until kevin was an adult and a player for the ravens. i really don't see the problem with this, considering three years (as far as i know, it is three years) isn't a HUGE gap in maturity and by the time they were together they were both very much consenting adults. as far as we know, thea didn't make any moves on kevin when he was a minor, and (if i'm correct) kevin being 18 and thea being 21 when they first properly started getting together isn't anything problematic. they're in similar stages of life, in a very close environment that's toxic, yes, but that they're both familiar with, and it's clear that the feelings they have for each other aren't the same as the violent, repressed sexual feelings held by some of the other ravens. they do genuinely care about each other on some emotional level, much as the fandom may want to deny it, and i don't really think there was anything wrong with their relationship re: consent and the age gap.

anyway, that's really all i have to say except that i do think thea is a complicated and honestly pretty realistic character, given the horrific circumstances she experienced in the nest. i think the fandom is well within their rights to criticise her actions but it bears remembering that she is just a human being and is never going to be perfect, and i think the way she acts is very real and true to her personality and circumstances and she makes a lot of mistakes, but that's just the human condition. it's also insane how much hate thea receives when she's honestly pretty on par with most of the other aftg characters on the moral "scale", if that even exists here. it's pretty baffling how much hate thea receives when she doesn't act all that differently to andrew, neil and kevin. it erases a lot of her complexity and does a disservice to her character (which, if you think about it, we don't know all that much about) to just label her as a purely "good" or "bad" character. aftg is not meant to be portraying conventionally "good" people, and i just think all the thea discourse is really interesting to put under a microscope and dissect.

thanks for reading and i will say it again: if u don't agree with me, that's fine, feel free to explain ur opinions and ur side of things. if ur just gonna be bitching and moaning abt how wrong i am or how much u hate/love thea, take it elsewhere. just don't engage. how easy is that??? just keep scrolling.

i think neil should've gotten to shoot riko personally. as a treat.

you ever think about how andrew's freak out after neil got kidnapped wasn't about the deal they made? andrew was FREAKING the fuck out and he didn't even stop to think about why. it wasn't because he had broken his promise and it wasn't because neil wasn't around to keep his, no, it was because it was NEIL. and despite everything, andrew CARES. he CARES about NEIL MF JOSTEN. he couldn't even excuse it by saying it was about the deal, because neil broke it off. he couldn't hide behind the promise he made, because neil made him break it, so it isn't about andrew, or the promise or the deal, it's about neil.

i think we should consider how devastating neil's kidnapping was for kevin. like obviously it affected all of the foxes because it was neil, who has a million secrets and is their friend and took all the hits but got back up again anyway. but do u think it clocked kevin the hardest because he knew who neil was. he knew that neil was running from a million things but he refused to run from the foxes. he stood his ground and said things he shouldn't say and is, for all intents and purposes, a miracle. do u think kevin managed to convince himself that neil was the exception? he talked shit about the moriyamas without fear or thought of consequences, he gave himself up to the ravens for andrew and the foxes and came back alive and refused to sign the papers despite all the torture and abuse. he wears riko's tattoo but refuses to be owned by him. he bitches at the press and doesn't back down, doesn't apologise, even when he probably should. kevin told him to run but he didn't, he stood his ground and maybe, somewhere along the way, he managed to convince kevin that he really was indomitable. that even two weeks at evermore, all his father's people on his trail, the pressure of being a star athlete, couldn't break him. and even though kevin knew this was coming, that neil couldn't be neil josten forever, he still allowed himself to consider the possibility, that maybe neil would make it out alive. that maybe neil wouldn't stop fighting and he'd claw his way out of this shitty situation alive, with the foxes finally coming out on top. because even though neil is messy and mouthy and bitchy, despite it all, he gave kevin hope for the first time in maybe his entire life. kevin has spent his ENTIRE life abused and treated like a possession at evermore, he thinks he'll never escape, even when he's at palmetto. but neil, neil is so determined not be owned, so determined that even if he dies, he's going to die free, die happy. kevin thinks it's crazy that neil josten, someone who isn't even real, is the one who's giving the foxes hope. who's giving him hope. who's bringing the team together, who's actually getting through to andrew, who's fierce in the face of even the worst monsters that kevin knows, who would rather die than be false to himself. and kevin can't help but hope that neil will get them out alive. that maybe, despite everything, neil is their key to winning championships, and he can finally escape riko, escape tetsuji, escape the ravens. it's not just neil's skill, it's that neil doesn't back down, and neil is bringing the team together, and it actually looks like they have a chance, for once. and then neil's just...gone. and kevin knew this was coming but he thought maybe neil would be the exception. maybe neil would actually escape. but neil's gone, his father's people finally caught up with him, and neil, who is still alive despite his sharp tongue and bloodied childhood, will finally be broken. and there goes kevin's dreams of winning, there goes kevin's dreams of escaping his past, taken with neil. do you think that's when kevin really lost hope? when neil was taken from them, all of the careful, wistful dreams and hopes that he'd built up the past months were gone, just like that. i think we should talk about this more.