Dean: Do You Think I Don't Love You? I Love You. I Would Kill For You. Come On, Ask Me To Kill Someone

dean: do you think I don't love you? I love you. I would kill for you. come on, ask me to kill someone for you.

sammy: first of all, calm down.

Just throwing some thoughts on the pile.

Are we using 'problematic ship' as longhand for proship? Because if we are, or if anyone in these threads is, please know that's not what proship stands for. Proship is just 'pro', as if 'for', shipping. As in, 'in support of shipping'. It's another version of Ship And Let Ship. You enjoy your thing and let other people enjoy theirs.

I don't know if this is a fandom-generation thing, but as far as I've ever seen and known and used the term from back in early 2000s, 'shipping' has always been a way to refer to pairing characters sexually or romantically (neither of which has ever excluded general interest/fascination/exploration of other themes involving the pair, for the record. All of that can be explored within the scope of sex and romance. But if they're explored exclusive of it, it wouldn't quite be considered shipping to me). If that's evolved over time, then so be it, but taking everything the previous posters said into account, I have to wonder if it could also be a response to the anti movement, where reasonable people are (subconsciously or otherwise) distancing themselves from the traditional meaning of the word so as to avoid the ire of the roving anti brigade.

Regarding the point that antis have started using 'shipping' to mean 'want to see in canon', that tracks with what I've been noticing lately. In SPN fandom, there's this bizarre need among hellers to insist to all and sundry (despite lack of actual evidence) that their ship is canon, and demand confirmation from involved parties (actors, writers, etc.) that it is so (despite repeated denials from all but one, who's a known attention-seeking shit-stirrer) as if their ship is somehow invalidated or disallowed if it's not, which explains why they're so rabid about it. They seem not to understand that shipping has nothing to do with canon (although you can ship canon relationships, of course). It's purely a fanonical venture and that's fine. That's good. It's allowed. It's expected. It's been done since the very beginning of fandom, and you hold no moral superiority over another based on whether your ship goes canon or not.

I guess that's the bit that mystifies me the most. We're all in here watching our dumb little shows for our dumb little blorbos. They often have weird, extreme, gross or, yes, problematic themes or behaviours exemplified within them. That's what makes them interesting, for crying out loud. We like them anyway, antis included.

So quit trying to make it a morality contest.

Although I mean, let's be honest, you lost the first time you told someone to be less alive about it.

i think what’s generally more acceptable now isn’t shipping problematic ships. it’s shipping “problematic” ships the way an anti would, meaning you are only meant to focus on how abusive, horrible, unhealthy something is. you are not allowed to have empathy for the characters or discuss the LOVE involved at all to the point where a lot of complex relationships get flattened and shipping gets reduced to "analyzing the abuse”, making it so that no one’s allowed to find beauty in dark content at all.

season 3 ➜ season 12

dean bit him.

sorry to whoever made the wrong version of this for plagiarizing but fixing it was soothing to my soul

What if Sam didn't notice the first time Dean broke into his apartment? What if Dean got in, helped himself to a beer from the fridge, and then just wandered around the living room? Looking at pictures on the walls (in the dark, so he doesn't notice the corner of a picture of him and Sam sticking out of the LSAT study book on the coffee table), looking at the uncluttered, settled, homeyness of this place Sam lives. With a girl. With not Dean.

What if eventually, he gets tired of waiting for Sam's hunter instincts to kick in, because clearly Sam's gotten rusty if he hasn't woken up yet, so he makes his silent (maybe not-so-silent, maybe he's making a bit of noise on purpose because he wantsneedshungers to feel Sam against him like he used to, when they were younger and sparring) way to the bedroom. What if he pauses at the door, open just a crack, because those sounds are muffled but quite clearly involved and Dean's never had a chance to walk in on Sammy with a girl before. Walk in on Sammy naked, sure, that was inevitable with how they grew up. Walk in on Sammy jerkin' it, yeah. That was also inevitable (especially when he was trying to, needed desperately to see Sam when he was lost in pleasure, loose and wanton and so so forbidden). But Sammy with a girl? Heck, for all Dean knows, Sam left for college a virgin (thank god).

What if Dean peeks through the crack in the door, and suddenly he can't breathe because those sounds are muffled because Sam's biting a pillow, knuckles white where he's holding fistfuls of it, and a blonde goddess with a leather halter on her hips is thrusting into him and they're glistening with sweat in the moonlight and all Dean can think about is how much he hates that woman, how much he wants to be the one holding Sam's waist in a bruising grip, how much he wants to feel Sam tight and hot around him.

What if Dean sees the woman - Jess, her name is Jess, his stalking has taught him that much - lean down, what if Dean hears her say "you like that, baby brother?" and what if Sam's cry as he comes gets Dean harder than diamonds and Dean has to leave, has to get out now because if he doesn't...

if he doesn't...

god, if he doesn't he might have to pull her off of Sam, because that should be him and Sam knows it and clearly she knows it too.

What if Dean had to come back the next night, because he couldn't trust himself that first time he broke in?