Jean-baptiste Sanson - Tumblr Posts
How do you think would Subyss and Jean Baptiste act around someone for example their apprentice being very affectionate towards them or just generally kind without being timid around them
I think both of them would borrow a certain type of affection for them, although given Subyss' personality, that affection may not be that wholesome.
With Jean-Baptiste, he would treat them as sons, and they would eat at the same table as the rest of the family and he would heavily encourage, that if that apprentice is relatively safe to be around, his own children to socialize with them. So, no, he isn't that affectionate, but he would give them an illusion of paternal warmth to discourage feelings of rivalry they may harbor. His apprentices would also spend considerably more time with the servants of the Sanson household. However, should his apprentices try to outrival him, he would either get rid of them by sending them back to their parents, or he would harshly punish them, and then spend a long session of after-care that would both respect their boundaries but also include plenty of mind-games. His primary goal is to discourage rivalries between his children and those of other dynasties.
Subyss...I think by just how obsessed he is with his job and bloodline, he would try to be a "good" master, and would actively work on controlling his drinking problem so he could provide his apprentice with better living conditions. However, I think he would have a lot of trouble controlling his sadistic side, and thus not torturing them would require a lot of self-control on his part, especially if his apprentice is in a vulnerable position. Even so, Subyss would limit his corporal punishments to whippings and spankings, but very long and humiliating ones. Also, I don't think he's above sexually abusing his apprentices.
EDIT:
Jean-Baptiste would probably push aside an apprentice that is too affectionate, and Subyss might decide on starting a sexual relationship with the cuddly apprentice.
How do you think Jean-Baptiste is with the servants?
From the few clues we have, he's a rather nice boss, who is able to get his servant's sincere devotion. Nicolas-Gabriel says that all the assistants are devoted to him. Jean-Baptiste was André's original master, and the fact he serves Nicolas-Gabriel when we first meet him suggests that Jean-Baptiste allowed it to happen. When Jean-Baptiste worked as executioner, Paris had already replaced the "droit de havage" into a fixed sum, and thus his servants were essencially now all forced to cosplay civilians. So being his employee would probably imply that you would receive a couple of false names and adresses, just so you could do errands without getting punched in the face more times than absolutely necessary. However, essentially cosplaying normal people means that you cannot hope, unlike the rest of your colleagues, to elevate your social status in the executioner hierarchy by marrying one of his sons or daughters. So yeah, it's a two way thing. The work would be hard, mentally taxing, disgusting, but in case of legal trouble, he'll probably take their side, and would even recommend them to a relative if you seem to particularly like said relative. Also, his pay would be a lot more regular.
Charles-Jean-Baptiste Sanson
Shinichi Sakamoto has here a truly interesting character and quite a well-written one.
Jean-Baptiste is here presented as someone with a great ability to delude himself, and he has to. Because otherwise, he would be dealing with: I sometimes kill innocent people for a living, something he recognizes. He is someone who is wrecked with guilt and is pressured to never show it. In his mind, it’s a sense of weakness. Also, he had evolved all his life in a clan-attachment style of emotional attachment and he only knows the values of the executioner cast.
Also, this sort of dynastic succession is the main cause of the father-son conflict. Both sides are actually reasonable when you look at it, but Jean-Baptiste actually takes it too far. For example: “If you don’t want to go to school, fine but you got to help the household out” is a reasonable rule, but again, most of the time, helping out the household doesn’t involve killing people. However, aside from that boot scene, he’s surprisingly reasonable with his children, and his most open conflict is with Charles, and Charles only.
Also, he kind of gets a redemption arc in the third volume, where he saved Damien’s son...Plus, that scene with Griffith’s beheading.
Innocent manga headcanon
I believe Jean-Baptiste self-harms. Now, we are given clear instructions, but I think he probably does helf-harm...
So what are the risk factors? According to this (https://www.harboroaks.com/behavioral/self-harm/effects-symptoms-causes/) website:
Having ineffective coping skills
Having unstable mood or emotions
Being confused about one’s sexuality
Losing a loved one or friend to death
Having an inadequate support system
Family history of mental health conditions
Having a pre-existing mental illness or illnesses
Experiencing trauma or having a history of trauma exposure
Lack of impulse control
In Jean-Baptiste’s case, one can already guess what is it. Jean-Baptiste is already exposed to significant trauma because his profession is to kill people. Not to mention, being an associate to someone like the comte de Chartois must be somewhat scaring. Confusion with identity might also come into play here, although it’s not a confusion that is sexual in nature, and more connected to the fact he occasionally tortures people. Not to mention being an elite pariah. One must add he lived in an era were religious penitence was valued. Also, he would have a clear motivation to do so: an emotional need to punish himself.
Now, about his methods, I don’t think he uses scaring methods. He’s the type of person to hide basic humanity. I don’t think he’ll be willing to admit to something so vulnerable that in his mind, is between himself and God. No one else.
Now, I think his preferred method would be to subject himself to sleep deprivation through a killer schedule. One must guess that he:
-Is an executioner, which is more of an overpaid part-time job than anything else.
-This includes: training his own sons and any apprentices he might have.
-Making arrangements in advance with jailors.
-Making time to assist to trials so he can plan out the material ressources.
-Negotiate with unhelpful merchants to buy the necessary supplies.
-Now, he is also a charity medic that makes his own medicines.
-He also has a LOT of sex, which the only time he would be able to do that is at night, after what surely must be an exhausting day.
-His weeping down in front of the cross must also be more likely at night.
Now, imagine not sleeping with this.
My guess would also be that in private he uses methods of stinging and bruising to self-harm.
“You requested for me, father?” (Madeleine)
With glassy eyes, he took a look at his daughter, nervously standing at the door. "Yes. Come on in, Claude."
He allowed her to enter his study. He had to say it to her.
"We had to arrange your marriage to Pierre Hérisson. It's your hand against the family post. It would be this January. Until then, I would ask of you to assist at dissections. This might create trouble with your grandmother, it would probably be wiser for you to learn how to extract human fat before getting married. He's quite poorer, and thus he would need someone who could help him with that task. As much as I dislike going against my mother's wishes, blind obedience would certainly not help."
Jean-Baptiste’s heart felt a twinge of compassion for his daughter. She was so young, meek and defenseless. That innocence in her voice, the look on her worried face, he couldn’t help but think of a puppy licking the hand that beat him. She would be used to pay for something that wasn’t even her fault.
“I am sorry, Claude...I did not expect so early, but right now, our position is under threat. Thanks to Charles’ awful track record this year, and the fact I can no longer fully complete each execution...Magistrates do realize that other candidates for the office of Monsieur de Paris are more apt. The second they find something that could make the office confiscable, they would do it. Hérisson did place that ultimatum.”
She seemed so surprised at being allowed to the dissection room. Being to busy training his sons and apprentices, he sadly missed the chance to complete her training, or even giving it attention. Also, in terms of thoughts, sometimes, he could sense that deep down, his mother stayed an “outsider woman”. Her care for the family reputation, her will to prevent the girls from helping on the scaffold. He hated disobeying her, but now, it was a matter of common sense. A tinge of guilt travelled through him. He did her dirty so much. “Yes, Claude, you are going to the dissection room. After all, you would not be able to fulfill marital duties if you are actively prevented from knowing how to do so.”
Ignore your heart, ignore your heart.
Part of him also hated the idea of condemning his daughter to life as a “beatable wife”, who constantly “needed” correction. That was not a fate he would wish upon her.
continued from here with @subyss-chan
Father referring to Madeleine as "Claude" at least clued her in that she wasn't in trouble. Unless it was her grandmother, or if Madeleine's did something bad, her first name was used.
Since she could remember, Madeleine was told that she'll one day marry and be a part of another executioner's family. That it was the sacred duty of all daughters born under the Sanson family to bear children and support their husbands, no matter if the husband was rich or poor. No one knew this better than Anne-Marthe, the Iron Law, and so, Madeleine did her best to know of the various families that were just as "cursed" as the Sansons for using their hands to take lives.
"So soon? But I'm barely 16!" She uttered, snapping her eyes upwards. Madeleine was about to continue when she gave weight to what her father said.
"Wait. . .I'll be going down to that dissection room, then?" As much as she felt disgusted with the family's profession, Madeleine couldn't help but feel curious about that room, having only seen it whenever a message needed to be passed on to Jean-Baptiste if her step-mother or the servants were too busy. Anne-Marthe made it clear that women weren't allowed to enter the dissection room, so if she heard of this, Anne-Marthe would be red with fury at both her eldest granddaughter and son.
She was so obedient despite her nervousness. Sadly or luckily, there was no one to dissect this time.
“Not today, simply because there is nothing to dissect right now. However, if you go to the kitchen, maybe you could practice on a pig head if there’s still something left it to study.”
He almost felt sick with himself. He knew it was the strategic, logical thing to do...But this girl would never have the possibility her mother had. Instead of falling in love with a nice apprentice, she was used as a pion to defeat a scheme.
Well, at least he had to reward her...He was rather bad at it. admittedly, but it was just as important as punishment to keep submission. Using the strength he could gather, and oh how weakened he was and how he hated that, he grabbed his cane to stand up. Today was a bad health day. Aright.
He walked closer to her, to pat her head three stiff times.
On some level, she was lucky that Subyss didn’t succeed in sobering up. Because he would be the kind of person to place this ultimatum, should he be given the chance. Should he have done this, Jean-Baptiste would have killed Claude with his own hands, this was more merciful than life as the wife of this bastard.
Jean-Baptiste’s heart felt a twinge of compassion for his daughter. She was so young, meek and defenseless. That innocence in her voice, the look on her worried face, he couldn’t help but think of a puppy licking the hand that beat him. She would be used to pay for something that wasn’t even her fault.
“I am sorry, Claude…I did not expect so early, but right now, our position is under threat. Thanks to Charles’ awful track record this year, and the fact I can no longer fully complete each execution…Magistrates do realize that other candidates for the office of Monsieur de Paris are more apt. The second they find something that could make the office confiscable, they would do it. Hérisson did place that ultimatum.”
She seemed so surprised at being allowed to the dissection room. Being to busy training his sons and apprentices, he sadly missed the chance to complete her training, or even giving it attention. Also, in terms of thoughts, sometimes, he could sense that deep down, his mother stayed an “outsider woman”. Her care for the family reputation, her will to prevent the girls from helping on the scaffold. He hated disobeying her, but now, it was a matter of common sense. A tinge of guilt travelled through him. He did her dirty so much. “Yes, Claude, you are going to the dissection room. After all, you would not be able to fulfill marital duties if you are actively prevented from knowing how to do so.”
Ignore your heart, ignore your heart.
Part of him also hated the idea of condemning his daughter to life as a “beatable wife”, who constantly “needed” correction. That was not a fate he would wish upon her.
So she left the room...He wished he could check, but he had to take out the water from his “medicinal oven”. That day, he just knew he would not have the strength to do both. His leg was so stiff, oh so stiff and paralyzed. He was learning to cope with it better, but...He had to better manage his force.
(The End)
She was so obedient despite her nervousness. Sadly or luckily, there was no one to dissect this time.
“Not today, simply because there is nothing to dissect right now. However, if you go to the kitchen, maybe you could practice on a pig head if there’s still something left it to study.”
He almost felt sick with himself. He knew it was the strategic, logical thing to do…But this girl would never have the possibility her mother had. Instead of falling in love with a nice apprentice, she was used as a pion to defeat a scheme.
Well, at least he had to reward her…He was rather bad at it. admittedly, but it was just as important as punishment to keep submission. Using the strength he could gather, and oh how weakened he was and how he hated that, he grabbed his cane to stand up. Today was a bad health day. Aright.
He walked closer to her, to pat her head three stiff times.
On some level, she was lucky that Subyss didn’t succeed in sobering up. Because he would be the kind of person to place this ultimatum, should he be given the chance. Should he have done this, Jean-Baptiste would have killed Claude with his own hands, this was more merciful than life as the wife of this bastard.
“Well, you can’t have everything in life. God made you born in a Christian family, a wealthy one. Your are also healthy and beautiful. Beside, given how many noblemen treat girls of ill repute, you should NOT be willing to go there in the current state of affairs.” tried to reason Jean-Baptiste, lazily leaving his eyes from the next execution order.
“Versailles sounds like a dream. Even if it’s just once, I’d like to go and see the palace with my own eyes, without people looking at me with scorn…”
What a klutz Charles could be...To succeed a beheading only to forget to check the moulinet that would strangle the condemn...
“Madeleine, I am firm about this. The answer is “no”. No disguise is perfect, and most nobles don’t believe in curses, they are too snobbish and well-educated for that. They are disgusted by most women and girls of ill repute, but they do make an exception when it beatings.”
He really shouldn’t have sent Charles to boarding school. He performed barely acceptably on the scaffold. Blood splattered everywhere, messy, sloppy.
“Versailles sounds like a dream. Even if it’s just once, I’d like to go and see the palace with my own eyes, without people looking at me with scorn…”
Why Jean-Baptiste’s character design is brilliant
Here we have a very mono-chromatic character design with quite gaunt facial features. The lack of eyebrows, deep eye sockets, thin lips and hollow cheeks all contribute to an image of death, decay and sickness. The lack of eyebrows themselves may not indicate sickness, but combined with the lack of pattern baldness do evoke sickness and decay, as in terms of just healthy male pattern baldness the hair on the top of the head fall first, with a few rare exceptions. With decomposition, often times the opposite would be true as insects will have an easier time getting rid of smaller hairs than big ones. For a modern repertoire, a lack of brows is one of the tale tell signs of either alopecia or chemotherapy, and one of the hardest to hide. In Ancient Egypt, families would mourn pets by shaving their eyebrows off. In the few colored illustrations, his skin is a sickly greyish color, and his hair is silver. His overall facial structure evokes a Franklin expedition mummy or a corpse in it’s very early stages of decomposition, and he only gets gaunter as the series progress.
So again, this is a character who is very closely linked to disease, death and decay.
In the few colored illustrations, his color palette is fairly monochromatic, with two areas that are accentuated : his eyes and the embroidery. In fact, this character wears very elaborate embroidery in many that looks quite stiff. The cut of his clothes is also anachronical stiff. This symbolizes another aspect of this character : wealth and power.
Now another aspect of his character design is prominent masculine features. Sharp facial angles, the wide rib cage, powerful muscles. The tight pony tail was a hairstyle worn in the XVIII century by soldiers and sailors, which again indicate traditional masculinity.
Also, a tangent on grey. Grey is austere, grey is soft on the eyes and yet it is the shade of unyielding forces of natures. The clouds of a storm or hurricane, the bare rocks of a mountain, the cold cost-line mist that freezes you through the lungs at each breath.
Together we have: wealth and unyielding, patriarchal power that is rotting, decaying underneath. It will rot away before it bends.
And that is exactly Jean-Baptiste’s character.
She did agree, but she did smile...
“This is no laughing matter.” he scolded.
She didn't take it seriously, or so it seemed. She seemed to take this lightly. "I hope for your sake you do keep your word. Otherwise, I am not sure what will save you. Chartois is much more powerful than Subyss. He doesn't need us, we need him."
Jean-Baptiste said sternly, and yet with a certains softness : "Claude, you are not allowed to go anywhere near lord de Chartois, that means not near his house nor the Palace of Versailles. It seems strict, but he's both an ally, and I must confess, one of the most depraved individuals I had the misfortune to encounter. He once killed for kicks, and tortures women of ill repute for amusement. Virgin or not, you are still one, and if something happens to you, I will have no choice but to break the alliance, and it's a precious one. Have I made myself clear."
(Jean-Baptiste, trying to be a normal parent for once)
She had heard occasionally of Lord de Chartois' unpleasant reputation (despite the Sansons' necessity for strong alliances), along with how the noble had something to do with Charles' first decapitation, but with how the man was described by her father made Madeleine almost want to laugh. There was no madame or gentilhomme who was "well-mannered" as they wanted to appear.
"Sounds like he and Subyss would be kindred spirits. " Madeleine joked darkly, her lips contorting into a grin that was a mixture of disgust and shock.
"Rest assured, father, that I'll take that advice to heart. There's no reason for me to see him unless he's next in line for Charles' or Marie's blade."
Severus Snape vs. Charles-Jean-Baptiste Sanson
Yes, so let’s compair our two strict men-children from these two works, “Harry Potter”, by J.K Rowling, and “Innocent” by Shinichi Sakamoto
Speech patterns:
Severus Snape is both poetic (his beginning of the year speech is something to tell) and is quite verbally nasty. He doesn’t hesitate to verbally humiliate. Paradoxically, his response to humiliation is mouth-froathing rage. Verbally speaking, Snape is jumpy, somewhat poetic and quite nasty.
Jean-Baptiste’s speech patterns are plain. He doesn’t verbally or physically retaliate to humiliation, and tends to hide most of his emotions, including anger. His overall disposition is calm as a windless lake. We see him shouting once, when he tortures Charles.
Love language:
Severus Snape, in all his verbal nastiness, is capable of showing genuine affection. As a youngster, we see him pine over Lily. As an adult, we see him being quite warm around Draco, and in sixth year, even as Draco suspects him of wanting to usurp Lucius’s rank in the Death Eaters, he still feels safe enough around him to be bratty.
Jean-Baptiste, is not an affectionate man at all. He only shows affection to his mother, and to his poorly chosen friend. To his children, he will show affection either as a reward for behaving how he wants, or when they are semi-unconscious.
Background:
Severus Snape grew up dirt poor, and an outcast.
Jean-Baptiste comes from wealth, and is more of a king of the outcasts.
Comfort levels:
Severus Snape is quite rarely physically violent, and seems opposed to physical torture. He prefers to avoid physical touch.
Jean-Baptiste has no issues with physical touch, is uncomfortable with physical torture (still willing to use it though) and seems to belief showing he has basic humanity is more intimate than having sex.
Probably a bad idea but I’d lowkey project a lot of parental insecurities onto Jean-Baptiste, like is it bad that I want that man to hug me and tell me everything’s gonna be okay? The daddy issues are showing
First of all, I feel very bad for your parental insecurities.
Second of all, if you have the means, try to consult a psychologist. He or she would probably help you out a lot more than I can. I am just a historian in training who happens to like Innocent.
Jean-Baptiste is, in Innocent at least, portrayed as a deeply messed up person. The man tortured his own son with the boot, for crying out loud. Still, he is fantastically written, and I think one of the Shinichi Sakamoto's best characters. He's very vivid and realistic. This is maybe why he may not have as many fans as other characters in the series, because his brand of abuse feel more real. So, if you have problems with emotional abuse from your parents, it wouldn't be surprise that this character is easy for you to project this trauma on.
Also, Jean-Baptiste is a very masculine character, and he's attractive in the way creepy, sophisticated and mature men can be. Plus, he has that certain softness to him, that is again, very appealing.
Géranium
Subyss is most snuggly (more like touchy) when he's intoxicated, especially towards Nicolas-Gabriel, on the rare occasions they meet. I don't think Nicolas-Gabriel is particularly thrilled on this, unless he himself is quite intoxicated. Sober Subyss is most likely to pierce someone's vocal cords than to snuggle with them.
Jean-Baptiste is one of the less snuggly person ever, exept in strict privacy with his mother, and even then, not without him being considerably stressed.
Charles-Henri was saddly never able to really snuggle with his family, nor friends...Not even Père Grisel. Adult!Charles is very warm with his wife, though. He likes to keep her close.
An unfortunate encounter
Jean-Baptiste thought it would be a quick inspection of the torture chamber, just to make sure it was empty for needling, but there he saw...His own brother and Subyss making love, using the leather bed of torment to make love.
The executioner was lost for words, and it took him a while to get his presence noticed, not that it stopped Subyss.
“Jean-Baptiste, this isn’t what you think it is !” exclamed Nicolas-Gabriel, who Jean-Baptiste simply dragged by the hair away from Subyss.
“And what else could it be ! Honestly, sodomy in a torture chamber, I thought you were smarter than this. Dress up, I’ll check this mess later.”
Can I have some of your subyss headcanons since you're offering?
Absolutely !
So, Subyss...
I think Subyss as a teenager was quite corpse-like, mostly because of a mixture of lack of sun-light and his time's conventional method of treating behavioral problems.
He and Nicolas-Gabriel are exes and occasional New Year lovers. They mostly met each other when they were younger. I think they truly deserve each other, but for different reasons.
-Subyss has multiple personality disorders on top of being torture-addled.
-He began exessive drinking at a young age
He's the same age as Jean-Baptiste, just that some lucky inbreeding and lack of sun-light slowed down the aging process.
-Jean-Baptiste and Subyss hate each other's guts.
Tonight I wanted to find other Innocent-related blogs (I read it a year ago and the fixation came back), so I scrolled through who you follow (didn't mean to stalk so sorry if it comes off like I did... it was my intention to find similar content creators) and I found 2 things:
1. Sakamoto's old blog where he posted foot pics
2. A blog called scripttorture (through looking at scriptstructure and other script- blogs which are all AMAZING btw) which made me realise how much effort and research Sakamoto put into his manga, and how accurate the scenes of and reactions to abuse really were. And also the fact subyss is a drinker who believes his job is an art, even though it's unsuccessful in nature and very very stupid. And the way Charles reacted more to Anne-Marthe's psychological conditioning than his father's physical abuse. And the way Anne-Marthe's punishment made Marie a lot more resilient and motivated and wanting to be in control.
I apologize for the rant, I have to share my thoughts on this manga and the fandom is WAY TOO DAMN SMALL. So sorry for making you put up with it.
Thanks. No need to apologize. Yeah...Do know of @scripttorture and read some of their bibliography...It's interesting. And yes, Shinichi Sakamoto did do his research on the psychology of torture, like Subyss being an idiot and Charles more impacted by psychological conditioning than physical abuse...To an extent. Charles-Henri also seems to be mostly suicidal in this manga. For example, at one point he considers slicing his veins and seriously intends to talk to his father he plans to become a monk and reject the family profession, after his father literally tortured him for rejecting the family profession.
Also, Shinichi Sakamoto's Charles-Henri actually displays almost all Slytherin values, exept self-preservation...Which is interesting. It's implied that he was able to hide his identity in a boarding school out of all places for a certain amount of time and still able to somewhat succeed academically.
I have devoted my university studies to this man, Charles-Henri Sanson, and...Let's just say he was rather incompetant at his job, was willing to risk his post, what was left of a reputation and possibly even his life for a night with a stranger, but miraculously survived many lynching mobs. The more I learn about the XVIIIth century, the more amazed I am this man made it passed 30. Also, my opinion on him is more revisionistic, as I don't think this man really cared about his reputation...at least not sincerely. Because when we place his desire for rehabilitation in the economical and political context of the French Revolution, it very clearly appears as an act of self-preservation. If he indeed attended boarding school and managed to be moderately successful, academically speaking, it's a sign that he was a very intelligent person.