Torashi's Answers - Tumblr Posts

I’m sooooooo sooooo hyped to read your theory on 2x07. I have read a few theories and I am all for them as long as Moiraine and Siuan are on the same page. Fishwives! Is there any chance you can do a copy and paste here of what you wrote on Twitter (X)? In my country this particular social media platform is problematic and I have tried to get to your page using many means but it isn’t possible.

😩The post you're asking from is my 4th try, and I thought about doing this in the 1st and decided not to since the threads are like 35+ post each.

I'll at least do it for the detailed explanation. You might not be able to watch the clips, though.

OK, so it turns out I won't. I did. It took forever, 46 links, but then I was adding the tags, I went back in my notes app 2 sec to check something, and everything went away.

I'm sorry but I can't start over. 😩

Did you try using a VPN ? if it's really the location that causes problems and not Twitter/X itself, it might work.

Again,

No problem. Thanks for trying. Hopefully someone else will comment on the theories of 2x07. Pour moi, the logic (the written part) is more important than the links and gifs. I have tried with a vpn. Here, many people are having issues with that particular platform.

I commented before as well that for me 2x07 is problematic mainly due to the interactions between Moiraine and Siuan. 99% of people are very quick to point out how wrong I am in what I am seeing. There are literally 2 or 3 people I have seen who agree with me (and it looks like you are one of them) that’s why I was more interested in what you saw.

Thanks for trying though

Don't worry, I'll do it today. It's just that yesterday, when I posted, it was already late for me, so when you asked, it was really, really late, and I was already annoyed with tumblr before losing the links and kind of tired too, so I'll probably do it sometimes later.

Et de rien, j'ai passé tellement de temps sur cet épisode et à vérifier la plausibilité de ma théorie avec ce qu'on voit de chaque personnages y jouant un rôle que je suis sur qu'il n'y a pas d'autre explication possible que le tout était réel mais qu'on a mal interprété les intentions de Siuan.

Edit: jsp si cv t'update, mais en bref j'ai perdu ta derniere reponse. c'etait juste pour te prévenir qu'au final t'aurais une explication détaillée etc...

J'ai décidé de réellement détailler ma théorie puisque je le peux sur tumblr ( pas de limites). Bref, j'tai pas oublié ( vu que t'es en ano, j'peux pas faire autrement)

You just got things mixed up.

Liandrin did not tell him she was in a cell.

She only ordered him to kill Moiraine.

He planned for Mo to be held captive until he went to kill her. Only his mom heard and backstabbed him (obvi).

They had already established that their servants were loyal to her, not Mo, who had a claim to the throne but Anvaere and only her. So she probably made the servant he asked to help him, to trap him instead, which is why he ends up emprisoned.

Mo had left the house already when Liandrin came so he prob was like "OK I wish I didn't have to but if that's what you want me to do, I'll happily do it, I'll send some people looking for her and do my thing while they look."

Question: when Liandrin tells Barthanes that Moiraine is being held in a cell in the tower, is she trying to trick him in some way or does she actually think that? Because it didn’t seem to me like anyone was holding Moiraine? She was just with Rand? And presumably if they wanted to hold her, especially since she’s “stilled,” they would put her in her own cell and not where she and the dragon could conspire? I had just assumed Siuan put Rand down there and let Moiraine go too. But then again, Leane says to Verin, “don’t let her get close to you,” so maybe she IS being held? But again, even if no one but Siuan knows she’s “stilled” (hence Leanne’s concern), why would they have her in the cell with Rand if they thought she might help him?

I’m curious because if Moiraine isn’t being held in a cell, it makes me very curious what Liandrin was doing telling that to Barthanes. Did she purposefully mislead him or was she herself misled?

Please no book spoilers I’m not even done with the first one.

Siuan says, “Can you imagine, Moiraine, if one of the Forsaken got their hands on him?” Are we supposed to believe that Moiraine and Siuan have written six months of letters and Moiraine never mentioned Lanfear?

YES. It's a time line thing really. Moiraine learned about Lanfear the night she got attacked by the Fades rescued by Lan then both rescued by Verin and Tomas. During the 6 months she only knew that "the last battle of s1" was actually the first one hence the reasearch about the forsaken, it was only confirmed with Bayle Domon trough the poem and broken cuendillar. She hadn't realise that Ishy had been freed until she was able to figure out that broken cuendillar meant broken seal and therefore free Forsaken.

Then, when she realised that she HAD to tell Siuan about her being stilled she still couldn't get herself to admit it so she wasn't informed. Then, she only took the time to write something when she had Rand and they were back at the house and she was still stuck on making her stilling something tangible so she never sent the letter and Siuan only learned about it thanks to Lan.

If Moiraine didn’t write about being stilled and didn’t mention Lanfear, what in the world was she writing to Siuan about?

And they might have been writing to each other the sweetest, cutest, most romantic letter ever and obviously sharing info on what they gathered to try and solve the mistery of the broken cuendillar at the eye and what it would mean for their mission.

Her not talking about being stilled implies that Siuan also didn’t know about Rand leaving since it basically tells us that she omitted the details and probably wrote something along the lines of it "dearest Siuan, we were wrong it was not the dark one but Ishameal, we defeated him but something is fishy, found a broken cuendillar so I think it might have been our first battle and not the last, need help solving this puzzle because I have no idea of what it could mean"

( I'm re-explaining and refining my theory about S2E07 as of now, so I'm going over and fact-checking and coherence-checking everything right now, so ask away if you have more questions.)

I promise I’ll stop talking about this soon because I’m a few weeks behind the Discourse having just done this rewatch, but the main reason I personally think something was up with Siuan and Rand in the throne room in 02x07 is Siuan’s comment to him about using him as a weapon but not having him be the general. She didn’t get to be the Amyrlin without knowing that’s a dumb thing to say to *anyone,* especially anyone you want to work with you, let alone the dragon reborn who is the most powerful person in the world.

Two other things:

- Siuan says, “Can you imagine, Moiraine, if one of the Forsaken got their hands on him?” Are we supposed to believe that Moiraine and Siuan have written six months of letters and Moiraine never mentioned Lanfear? If Moiraine didn’t write about being stilled and didn’t mention Lanfear, what in the world was she writing to Siuan about? Unless she was trying to cut Siuan out entirely, which we have no reason to think she would. I guess maaybe it hasn’t been enough time to send a letter about Lanfear to Siuan.

- Why would Siuan want to announce Rand as dragon in Cairhien? Not only would that abruptly abandon the prophesy they’ve worked towards for decades and sacrificed everything for, wouldn’t it also bring all the forces of the dark to them immediately with only 14 Aes Sedai? Wouldn’t it be better to keep him a secret if they actually wanted to use him in the way she discusses? Or to declare him in Tar Valon where they can draw on all the resources of the White Tower?

I’m still not sure I think the heartbreaking ending of that episode was part of a scheme between Moiraine and Siuane—the “if you have ever loved me, don’t do this” feels too raw to me to be fake—but I *do* think something very weird was up with them in front of Rand.

Why why whyyyyy?!!!! I stayed far away from any spoilers or media about 2x07. Wanted to give myself time to savour it without work distractions. I thought I so loved Moiraine and Siuan in the episode in the first season. Can’t wait to see them in 2x07. I haven’t read the books so I was totally clueless going in.

And WHAT THE HELL?! I did not see that coming at all. This better be a planned thing between them because what? Though that last scene, the betrayal on Moiraine’s face and pain on Siuan’s seemed real. But whyyyyyyyyy. I have since checked to see which way they may go in the books…..only to find out it wasn’t this deep of a relationship there so everything is new for the show. Unhelpful since they can go anywhere!!!!!! Keep my fishwives together!!!!

I refuse to believe they are not working together all evidence going against my own head cannon is out

I haven’t read the books so I was totally clueless going in.

-> I feel you on this one, I didn't either, and apparently in the book it didn't happen either, anyway. I was deep in my feelings during the episode.

This better be a planned thing between them because what?

-> I think it was and the super long theory i'm working on is near i just have to figure out a way to add the vids as it's 1 vid per post and it's good to go. You'll tell me what you think ?

only to find out it wasn’t this deep of a relationship there so everything is new for the show.

-> Yes they were just best friends in the main serie but the prequel revealed that they were "pillow friends" basically they were a thing just not supposed to be in a serious long term relationship with Siuan. So if you want to read them together + Lan. You should read New Spring. It's the only book i'm going to read as I intend on staying a show only fan until the last season at least.

I refuse to believe they are not working together all evidence going against my own head cannon is out

-> My theory will disapoint you on this front, I don't think they did but it is still going our way ( siuaraine shippers). It's built on the assumption that Liuan ( Lan+ Siuan) did. You can take a look at the short and outdated (but still relevant ) version here if you want, if you're wainting for 10k + words version as many others here and on twitter.

https://href.li/?https://x.com/torashisama/status/1709627291062473025?s=20

Also, VOTE FOR SIUAN!

https://x.com/WotTVSeries/status/1717379260183093494?s=20

WoT about: "Rand gets no hero moments"

WoT abouts are Nreader to BCloaks/BReader takes and answers to questions I might get or find on Twitter, Reddit or here. So essentially, I'm sharing what I believe to be an interesting discussion topic to have in the fandom while sharing my thoughts on the matter.

book reader: I have finished the S2 of The Wheel of Time! It is a great improvement, loved each episode. However in the last episode, I just went back to season 1 finale: Rafe's least favorite character must be Rand, there is no other explanation. We just needed one Rand hero moment, just one!

torashi: I hear you but Rand effortlessly taking the shield off Egwene and Perrin, protecting everyone by himself, killing Ishy after having killed Turak and therefore having freed Falme of the Seanchan by himself is not him having a hero moment ?

The whole episode was about Rand and about him being heroic. Light! Actually, the whole season was about heroism for him. From S1E08, that's what it has been about:

Secretly leave alone with Moiraine after learning that he's the dragon to save his friends.

After "killing" Ishamael he leaves and makes Moiraine fake his death so that he can get away from them and never have to risk killing them because of the madness that he realised he already feels.

Learns that Egwene is kept captive by the Seanchean and leave everything behind even if it means willingly getting himself in a trap which he believes will get him killed by the Forsaken. ( this one i'll give it to you, Egwene stole his heroic moment by freeing herself)

Kill the equivalent of king and general of the Seanchean and his guard with no innocent victims.

Freed Falme of the Seanchean by doing so without causing collateral damages.

Fight alone against the strongest Forsaken, get hurt but get helped by his friends, Moiraine and Elayne.

Just healed from a life threatening wound and freed from his shield, he goes straight back into fighting to protect them and effortlessly take the shield off Egwene AND Perrin to protect them all.

Kills Ishamael alone with his sword while still holding the shield up and protecting them and effortlessly too, because Ishy had given up on getting him to turn to the Dark in this turn of the wheel but still kill or (seemingly) kills the strongest Forsaken when he barely knows how to channel yet.

book reader: He has his moments, no doubt. Yet I find them a tad anticlimactic. It's like he's playing a side character. Egwene shines with her incredible move, and then another one. #BookSpoiler Meanwhile, Rand, was stripped off the epic sky battle and his sacrifice with.

torashi: They are. I won't deny that, as I've always felt like this complaint was more "he doesn't get epic, flashy moments like the rest of them does" and to that, I completely agree but also understand why his moments feels like that in comparison. They all got sucked into this and would have been whether they liked it or not. They all surrendered to the wheel's wills but, Rand's case is different from theirs as he's the strongest channeller alive since his birth, he just needed to discover his power, and be discovered. Ishamael himself does not equals him, only the dark one does (if I got this right). The only reason he'd struggle in one of his fights and put on a show compared to the rest of EF5 is if he :

Fights the Dark One

Fights against a serious forsaken who actually intends on killing him (which are all still weaker than him but would all most likely win a fight in his current state because One Power fights seems to be much more about who shields first, who is more experienced and knowledgeable than fights that can just be won by force alone.)

Is fighting against himself because of the madness.

Won't , couldn't, or can't channel and had to use a weapon.

torashi: Compared to the rest of EF5, if he was shown struggling against Ishy who's the same enemy Eggy and Perrin were previously struggling with just to hold a shield up in a 2vs1 even when he did not really try because he was stronger than the both of them it wouldn't make any sense that Rand did too even when Ishy is purposefully not using is knowledge against them while also not being stronger than the Dragon Reborn. His moments feels anticlimactic because is character is set up to live these moments has something annoying, even boring but not really difficult or fulfilling. This isn't an achievement but an inconvenience he has to get rid off to be able to do what he really wants which is live as a farmer and have kids, for him, the achievement would have been saving Egwene not doing something he does reluctantly and because he's given no other choice.

All of EF5, but Egwene felt (or still feels) like this about all of the things they're asked/have to do. Egwene is the only one who actually seeks greatness and more than a simple life, first by becoming a Wisdom, then Aes Sedai. She's the only one actually trying hard and giving her best any chance she gets and not thinking about going home any time the opportunity presents itself since season 1, and she ends up being the one taken by the Seanchean too, made into a Damane which in turns makes her both the most experienced channeller and knowledgeable one of the 3. She's at her full strenght right now, whereas Ny can't channel because of her block, and Rand and Ny are the only other channelers of the group, someone had to stand up between Rand and Ishy and it couldn't have been Mat and even if Nynaeve was there they wouldn't have done it together because they were setting up how inconvenient the block had become even for herself and not just for the tower, since until S2E08 she could channel correctly when she needed to just not when the tower or others wanted her too.

In short, Rand does have his heroic moments, only at this point in the show it wouldn't make any sense to make them that big of a deal because they aren't compared to what's coming for him later and because so far he only had to deal with either weaker enemies or the kind of enemy that could easily kill him in his current state regardless of the power scale but who just did not want to. They have to show everything and can't rely on explanations, extensive descriptions etc… so the only way they can show the overwhelming gap that's is separating Rand from everyone else even his friends who are already established as one of the strongest out there is by making those moments feel insignificant in his story because ultimately they are compared to what they know is coming.

Here :

WoT about: "The writers keep giving time to plots that aren't *bad*, but do nothing to actually serve the story."

PS: As always, if you like my thoughts (or just the way I think about things) and would like to get my opinion on something as a non-reader, feel free to ask, the feature's here just for that.

WoT about: "The writers keep giving time to plots that aren't bad, but do nothing to actually serve the story".

Disclaimer : As always, it's long.

Alll of these comments are from a discussion I had with a book reader in the comments of a post on S3E01 being written by S1E06 and S2E07 writer: Justine Juel Gillmer. Basically, the original poster was celebrating more Siuan (however it might be) and/or a possible Siuanraine reunion in S3.

Book Reader 1:

In a story about the potential end of all things, I can't honestly say that I care about Suianraine. Side romance plots are fine, but they're not what WoT is really about. I hope they give a little ship time to those who are craving it, but they really need to work on the Nerf Reborn. He's way weaker in the show than he is in the books. We need a Rocky montage to put the Dragon back on track.

Book reader 2 :

One of my biggest issues with this show. The writers keep giving time to plots that aren't *bad*, but do nothing to actually serve the story.

Moiraines family scenes? Well written and acted, but that's 30-40 minutes that we could have had in Falme, or building up the Horn, or generally building the legend of the dragon.

Book reader 1 :

Yep. The show wastes precious time on things which aren't central to the plot.

Torashi :

That mostly has to do with the fact that the show is not about Rand but about Moiraine and specifically about Moiraine's Quest which is something that most book readers seems to have overlooked and that's the most important and fundamental change from the books yet it's overlooked when it comes to understanding how and why everything plays out the way it does.

If we had to choose a character and declare them the main one for the show, it would be Moiraine. That's the main difference that explains most of the complaints bookcloaks and book readers may have with the show.

The books are about Rand. Here, it's about "Moiraine's Quest", and it gives the show more room to explore the characters deemed as side characters and one of the most interesting group of people in this universe in my opinion: Aes Sedai's and their warders.

Both are telling the same story but not from the same POV, and that changes a bunch of things and it includes what gets showed or not.

Book reader 1 :

I certainly didn't overlook that the show is focused on Mo. That is the biggest problem, as you say (pre post edit: I did not say that the the Mo focus was a problem, never had actually) . Book Mo isn't anywhere near a main character after TEOTW, so it's a very questionable decision to promote her to a main, outside of real world "politics". Pike is the most recognized actress **and** she's a producer.

While I get that non-readers don't mind it, I and millions of other readers waited 39 years for the books to be turned into a show.

We weren't waiting on Siuan and Moiraine.

Torashi:

I'm not saying that you're overlooking this but that those who did read the books tends to do so and fail to realise( pre post edit: or recognise really) that the things they're complaining about usually makes sense as Rand is not the main character anymore.

The pov's are mostly Moiraine's, and while it's different from the books, it doesn't mean that it's not good. The story is just told differently, and a lot of you guys fail to realise that while it's not what you hoped for, you at least get to experience the same story told another way and in the same world you grew up loving but on screen.

I understand that it's disappointing as it's probably not what you guys imagined and expected the show would be if you ever got to see it, but Rand, as the main character, probably wouldn't have worked as needed exactly because it's been so long since the books.

The classic hero trope is not as appealing as it used to be for TV, and switching the focus and putting it onto the Gandalfs of the WoT world probably was better so it ended up as the Moiraine's Quest show and not as the Randland show. It's also probably because it's usually better if most actors in a fantasy show are unknown so that their reputation and previous roles do not taint the ones they'll have in the show.

( pre post edit : in case some people don't get why I'm comparing them, it's to emphasise that all of these fantasy shows have 1 or 2 of their main cast and characters as the biggest stars so that they don't have to rely only on the existing fandom but can also count on their main celebrity to bring a wider audience (advertising aside) which allows for the rest of the cast to be lesser known or straight-up debuting and/or unknown actors)

For ex, Matt Smith and Paddy Considine probably are the most recognisable actors of HOTD (HBO) and they're brothers in the show and have a close relationship ( in case you didn't see it, Matt is Daemon and Paddy is King Viserys)

WoT (Prime) has Rosamund Pike and Sophie Okonedo as their biggest star, and they have a close relationship.

(Fun fact : Sophie wasn't even supposed to be in the show and probably wouldn't have accepted if she was offered the part but Rosamund specifically wanted her to play her love interest and Sophie had to be written to personally by Ros so that she would accept the role ( anyone who knows or follows Sophie's work knows that her playing Siuan was as probable as a WoT + GoT crossover episode) )

The Witcher( Netflix) they really just needed Henry Cavill as he actually is a mainstream celebrity and was at the prime of his career when he took the role.

Good Omens (Prime) : David Tennant and Micheal Sheen, they lead and are close. ( they really could have been fine with David here. Actually, he probably has one of the most dedicated fan base I've seen because of his performance as the doctor ) ( they also have benedict cumberbatch but I'm sticking to mains biggest star + they're closest relationships )

Carnival Row (Prime and original so a lil different): Cara delevigne and Orlando Bloom, biggest stars + close relationship.

Good Omens is focused on the gandalfs ( Crowley & Aziraphale) again btw and it's one of amazon most successful adaptations.

The Witcher is also focused on the Gandalfs of their world: Geralt & Yennefer (by extension)

WoT switched it to be the same : Moiraine & Siuan (by extension).

What i'm saying is that basically most of the complaints are related to missing things from the books, the cast diversity, things people wish they could have seen or wishing Josha's (pre post edit :Rand) or Daniel's (pre post edit : Lan) characters where depicted as in the books or it's blaming the show (pre post edit: or really mainly and mostly Rafe and sometimes the rest of the writers) for spending time on things that actually makes sense when you recenter yourself in what the show is actually doing which is telling the story from Moiraine's POVs.

Siuan is important so she gets time, Lan is important so he gets time (pre post edit : mainly referencing the Aes sedai + Warder focused episodes of S1, from Ep4/5 to Ep6).

Liandrin is a problem and has a grudge against Mo that leads her to be a threat not only because she's a red and black ajah but also because of an ulterior reason so she gets time and is developed, Moiraine is pushing everyone away even the only 2 people she could allow herself to be close to during her mission because of her depression and allow herself no other choice but to go to Cairhien alone which happens to be her hometown so we get a family reunion and see how much her quest for Rand impacted her and her family too and how unusual it is even for an Aes sedai( Alanna's scenes with her family).

The main problem isn't that the story is being told through Moiraine's POV but that they only get 8 episodes of approximately 1 hour each to tell a story that required 14 books to finish, they clearly need more or longer episodes per season to include more of what they initially intended to put in each season. ( pre post edit : in case you didn't know Lan was supposed to start training the boys from s1. you can check here )

For reference, GOT had 10 episodes for each season until S7 for 8 season out of 10 initially planned, each episode falling anywhere between 1h and 1h22 max, and it's only 5 books out on 7 planned.

There, we have 8 episodes falling anywhere between 54 minutes to 1h10 min max each, planned to have 8 seasons for 14 books.

(Pre post edit : so far, and yes i went to check the longest ep so far was 1h10 min and it's s2 finale in case you were wondering)

Original poster reaction :

OMG!!! I wish I could give you gold for this comment. I am getting tired of when I post something about the show, instead of people focusing on the show, they wanna bring the "but but but the books did this and that and it is nowhere to be found on the show", like I don't care, let's focus on what's happening in the show and can we only talk about that? You should make another main post pointing this out and that for the sake of productive conversations, this sub should stop complaining about what isn't on the show from the books and more on what we actually get, if it works or not let's stick to that!

Torashi :

I understand, but I totally get their reaction, too. It's been so long for them that it's probably hard to accept anything else than what they expected or wished they had.

(pre post edit :

While i do understand the frustration, i do not understand why you think it makes it fine to ruin (or tarnish) the experience of genuine show only fans by complaining and shitting on the show for missing things or not doing it the way you wanted it to be instead of going:

"That's cool i wish they had room for this or that, in the books there's this or that and whatever, you should check the books."

"The story is so much more richer even though the focus is not on the guide in the books. It could be interesting for you to see it from another PoV too"

You'd actually make show-only fans want to read the books. You guys have been tainted by so much display of lack of respect and gratitude towards those making and/or enjoying the show that I think that you're actually deterring show only fans from the books by dividing the fandom as much as S8 divided GOT fans and by making people afraid to read them before the show ends because of how ugly your reactions are and have been. (You guys are literally associated to Whitecloacks).)

Torashi:

What's infuriating me, though, is that most of the books things they wish they saw when that's what they're complaining about are things that had to be cut because they were details and did not impact the rest of the story as much and instead of complaining about the show having an insane amount of episodes, episode's length and planned seasons for 14 books each individually as big as an encyclopedia they blame Rafe who actually loved the books and is a fan too, that's literally why the books got approved to be on screen. Rafe he's a book fan that got lucky the same way Brandon Sanderson was a book fan that got lucky back then. He probably wish he could put more things in there too.

Instead of complaining about the real problem, they should be battling against, its straight up hate (from bookcloaks) and endless complaints about things that does not matter as its really just "yes but in the books" for choices that does makes sense when they stop being Rand centric while watching a show that isn't about the hero's journey but about the Quest itself.

(Pre post edit thoughts:

Robert made a mistake by calling his books: The Wheel of Time ,to then make most of the pov's and most of the story revolve around a single character. He should have called it "The dragon Reborn" or something along those lines, because most of book readers' new complaints I've seen so far, really are just about it not being ridiculously focused on Rand's story or like the books when they know that this is not a "Randland" show but specifically one that corrects this major flaw from the books by using the only character close enough, interesting enough and refreshing enough to tell this story trought a different lense that allows more freedom to explore other "z-list"/ side characters who actually plays a role in all of this, it's actually painfull to see so many book readers fail to realise that Moiraine really is just the best character to tell this story as she actually knows what's going on behind the scene whereas Rand is just clueless.)

E.g: Rand apparently being powerless (or rather not as powerful as they wished he would be already).

Even though he was alone and in hiding for the last 6 months and only ever channelled because he lacked control and only got to Logain once, because he stayed close but still ignored him for as long as he could. Until he left with Selene to then be found by Mo, he still kills Ishy, Turak and his guards, takes the shield off Egwene (pre post edit: who's struggling btw) and looks like he doesn't even break a sweat.

Yet, all some book readers allow themselves to see is him being "powerless" because he didn't get a flashy 1vs1 against the bad guy even though it wouldn't makes sense with his current development (that was impacted by what ? Cuts because of time/budget constraints ) and Egwene literally is the strongest and most experienced of them all right now because of the Sanchean (pre post edit : the bright side of being a damane lol ) and is one of the most developed character of s2 from EF5 because of what needs to happen with Siuan at some point in S3 and where her (really theirs) story might be going.

(more on this topic here)

This ends here, feel free to share your opinion on this.