Torashi's Thoughts - Tumblr Posts

It turns out that I will be explaining my theory in another post coming soon. I went on my laptop to copy-paste everything so I'll format it, retrieve the clips, etc.. then you'll have a detailed and well-thought and hopefully well written theory longer than a fanfic chapter (maybe chapters who knows) to read, watch, and carefully listen to about S2E07.

Synopsis (lol):

Lan go to Siuan, together they prepare an intervention to help Moiraine. Unfortunately, it doesn't go as planned. What was their plan ? What went wrong ? What are the consequences they'll have to face ?

(And maybe more things.)

Also for those who saw my first post linking the theory as explained on Twitter, I know I went from "I'm bored , brain won't let me explain it again when I know I could just paste the link + Tumblr made me remake this 3 times so i'm annoyed" to "I'll rewrite the whole thing with even more details and hopefully make it even better than before" in only a few hours (not even a day it was already super late for me when I posted the initial post 😩😭). I know.

Blame ADHD.

Post I was talking about :

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S2E07 Theory : Everything between Siuan and Moiraine is genuine. Only we forgot that :

So let's listen and watch carefully. So I won't be explaining my theory, won't even summarise it here as I already tried to summarise it 2

👋🏾

Mommy Moraine doesn't have the patience, Mother Siuan, either.

One will delegate to uncle Lan, and the other will deal with their annoying son herself.

Thanks to Uncle Lan, no red-haired baby has been laser eyed out of the atmosphere with the One Power.

But then, ultimately, later when their red-haired baby acts out again, of our two moms, when even Uncle Lan is out of patience and even ko'di is useless and can't save you, you get punished by Liuan and ends up in time out.

*Mommy Mo discretly being proud of her wife and husband*

moms vs. their toddler

Just started "New Spring," and I'm enjoying it so much. It's super fun to read and realise that most of my headcanons, if not all of them, are getting confirmed, and I'm only starting chapter 3 now.

Also, I'm learning new things and making new connections I did not think about before about my favourite characters.

It's so entertaining and satisfying !

I can already tell that by the time I finish the book, I'll want to rewatch S1 and S2, keeping in mind what I learned and realised about our favourite throuple.

No, because this is literally just them so far :

I just read about this. 😭😂

She really was like:

"Oh well, OK."

"Yes, I'm totally in shock, Merean Sedai. You're right. That's totally the reason why I'm not crying."

"Can I leave now ? But before, let's make sure that you let me go do boring things again with my girlfriend tomorrow as initially planned because I don't care about them want to be alone with the grief."

leaves and proceeds to go to her room and think about going to her future fishwife's room instead

something so extremely funny but also extremely book accurate about show Moiraine gleefully running through the White Tower like "Oh good news everyone, the Aiel War is over! (because they killed her uncle and several of her cousins)"

Siuan says, “Can you imagine, Moiraine, if one of the Forsaken got their hands on him?” Are we supposed to believe that Moiraine and Siuan have written six months of letters and Moiraine never mentioned Lanfear?

YES. It's a time line thing really. Moiraine learned about Lanfear the night she got attacked by the Fades rescued by Lan then both rescued by Verin and Tomas. During the 6 months she only knew that "the last battle of s1" was actually the first one hence the reasearch about the forsaken, it was only confirmed with Bayle Domon trough the poem and broken cuendillar. She hadn't realise that Ishy had been freed until she was able to figure out that broken cuendillar meant broken seal and therefore free Forsaken.

Then, when she realised that she HAD to tell Siuan about her being stilled she still couldn't get herself to admit it so she wasn't informed. Then, she only took the time to write something when she had Rand and they were back at the house and she was still stuck on making her stilling something tangible so she never sent the letter and Siuan only learned about it thanks to Lan.

If Moiraine didn’t write about being stilled and didn’t mention Lanfear, what in the world was she writing to Siuan about?

And they might have been writing to each other the sweetest, cutest, most romantic letter ever and obviously sharing info on what they gathered to try and solve the mistery of the broken cuendillar at the eye and what it would mean for their mission.

Her not talking about being stilled implies that Siuan also didn’t know about Rand leaving since it basically tells us that she omitted the details and probably wrote something along the lines of it "dearest Siuan, we were wrong it was not the dark one but Ishameal, we defeated him but something is fishy, found a broken cuendillar so I think it might have been our first battle and not the last, need help solving this puzzle because I have no idea of what it could mean"

( I'm re-explaining and refining my theory about S2E07 as of now, so I'm going over and fact-checking and coherence-checking everything right now, so ask away if you have more questions.)

I promise I’ll stop talking about this soon because I’m a few weeks behind the Discourse having just done this rewatch, but the main reason I personally think something was up with Siuan and Rand in the throne room in 02x07 is Siuan’s comment to him about using him as a weapon but not having him be the general. She didn’t get to be the Amyrlin without knowing that’s a dumb thing to say to *anyone,* especially anyone you want to work with you, let alone the dragon reborn who is the most powerful person in the world.

Two other things:

- Siuan says, “Can you imagine, Moiraine, if one of the Forsaken got their hands on him?” Are we supposed to believe that Moiraine and Siuan have written six months of letters and Moiraine never mentioned Lanfear? If Moiraine didn’t write about being stilled and didn’t mention Lanfear, what in the world was she writing to Siuan about? Unless she was trying to cut Siuan out entirely, which we have no reason to think she would. I guess maaybe it hasn’t been enough time to send a letter about Lanfear to Siuan.

- Why would Siuan want to announce Rand as dragon in Cairhien? Not only would that abruptly abandon the prophesy they’ve worked towards for decades and sacrificed everything for, wouldn’t it also bring all the forces of the dark to them immediately with only 14 Aes Sedai? Wouldn’t it be better to keep him a secret if they actually wanted to use him in the way she discusses? Or to declare him in Tar Valon where they can draw on all the resources of the White Tower?

I’m still not sure I think the heartbreaking ending of that episode was part of a scheme between Moiraine and Siuane—the “if you have ever loved me, don’t do this” feels too raw to me to be fake—but I *do* think something very weird was up with them in front of Rand.

If somehow you answered yes, subscribe to my blog or some of the tags for this post because it is coming soon ( I don't know when, It could be later today or in a few days but it is coming for sure)

EDIT : it's here

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WoT 207 ''Daes Dae'mar'': A detailed theory-analysis

DISCLAIMER : This explanation is a detailed one. It is a deep dive into the season taking into account the point of view of all the relevan

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Daes dae'Mar theory: What has been proved so far ?

So, in this post, i'll just add the proof I found that confirms or consolidate some parts of the theory. It won't be as long as the theory i

WoT 207 ''Daes Dae'mar'': A detailed theory-analysis

DISCLAIMER :

This explanation is a detailed one. It is a deep dive into the season taking into account the point of view of all the relevant protagonists and antagonists of the game of houses that took place in Cairhien before our eyes in S2E07.Therefore, It's seemingly endless. If you don't enjoy reading or simply does not want to take the time to read, listen and watch all of it. You can check the following links to find the initial (shorter and less detailed, also outdated but still relevant) version of this explanation:

FOREWORD :

Excuse any eye piercing mistakes I might make or clunky phrasings you might notice, I'm French and ADHD's a bitch.

I've seen a lot of confusion about how Lan figured out about Moiraine. So, I analysed his POV throughout the season and those of the relevant characters in all of this so that it's clear for everyone as understanding part 1 is the central and fundmental part of this theory. It would be best for everyone, if there was no confusion.

PS: THE SCENES ARE IN HYPERLINKS FORMS BECAUSE I CAN'T PUT MOST THAN 1 VID PER POST, also forget about the backlinks. I forgot that the url would change if I went back to the different scenes after posting so that it'll stay like this but they won't work. ( no even sure they'll be necessary, i added them in case it was, so it'ss not an issue)

Let's theorise now, shall we ?

Part 1. Lan's and other relevant characters point of views throughout the season

E01 : A taste of Solitude

Here, his point of view is not important as it's mostly about how the bond being severed for the last 6 months affected him. What we can still point out from this episode is that at the beginning, Moiraine finally understands what the broken piece of Cuendillar at the Eye of The World meant. She understand thanks to the poem that was written on the back of the one that Bayle had, that all this time Ishamael was freed not defeated.

And that, at the end, when she first tried to leave without Lan, they ended up getting hurt and almost dying then getting rescued from the Fades who were following Bayle Domon by Verin and Tomas. ( (educated guess thanks to E08)Lanfear used him to get to Mo trough the fades, Moiraine was supposed to die before she had the chance to intervene.)

E02 : Strangers and Friends

After the Fades attack, Moiraine and Lan have been healed.

She's cold and leaving for the "docks", Verin tells her that Adeleas and her will accompany her and suggests that she goes to the White Tower first. She agrees. Later, at night, seated around a campfire listening to Verin, Adeleas and Tomas reminisce about their youth, Lan and Moiraine gets to do the same and remembers the first time they met each other. Sometime after, it's time for them to say goodbye and go their separate ways. Lan, while Moiraine is distracted, searches her saddle in which he finds a worn out piece of paper that is laced into what appears to be a thin thread of leather, before he can take a look at it, Moiraine comes back and he hides his findings in his cloak. They talk.

"I should have sensed the Fades were coming. I should have… I'm sorry. "

"Do you know when I actually decided you'd be my Warder?"

[…]

"You'll go to the Tower and I'll continue alone."

[…]

"We didn't defeat the Dark One, we set his strongest lieutenant free. The Forsaken are 3000 years old. They're the strongest channelers that ever lived, and Ishamael may be waking the others. What they can do with the One Power make the Aes Sedai look like tavern magicians conjuring birds from their sleeves. I mean, he cut me off with a flick of his wrist."

"But it takes eight Aes Sedai to cut someone off. Alone, he couldn't, no matter how…"

"You have no conception of the power they wield. "

"Well, then tell me.You and I walk this path together. […]"

"We've never walked this path together. You've never seen the forest for the trees because I have never shown it to you."

"You can't push me away."

"Rand's alive."

"No. You said he was dead."

"You assumed."

[…]

"I took an oath to defend you. "

"And without the bond, you're unable to fulfil that oath."

"I'm still your Warder.""

"No, you failed me.""

[…]

"I am not letting you walk away from me again."

"I know. Alanna will see you to the Tower. I'll have her take your bond by force if I must."

Lan from his last conversation with Moiraine before Siuan, Alanna, Maksim and Ihvon becomes relevant factors learns that :

He had been chosen as her warder because she thought "he'll ultimately will be fine if I die"

She wants to leaves him behind again

They did not defeat the Dark One at the Eye but only made things worse by releasing his strongest lieutenant, a forsaken: Ishamael a.k.a Ishy.

Ishamael is most likely than not on a quest to release the other ones.

The forsaken are so much more stronger than the Aes Sedai that the difference is hilarious to think about.

Ishy apparently stilled her by himself.

Mo's betrayed his trust for the last 6 months by lying the Aes Sedai way ( purposefully misleading him) about Rand's death.

She thinks that he failed her and isn't her warder anymore.

She never thought of him as her equal.

She'd betray his trust again by letting Alanna take his bond by force (violate him) so that he'd let her leave alone on her suicide mission.

E03: What Might Be

This episode is unusable as Lan only appears as a part of Nynaeve's trial in the arches. However, we can still count the day or days passing in this episode to try and know how long it's been since Moiraine and Lan have been separated.

I've found that it's only been a day since they left each other by the end of episode 3.

E04: Daughter of the Night

When we first see Lan again since he's been forced to leave with Alanna, He's already been 2 days and 1 night away from Moiraine. This episode will be the 3rd day and 2nd night.

During the day, he's with Alanna and instead of heading straight back for the Tower they pay a visit to Alanna's family.

He eats with them ( lunch ) then he leaves the table to go take a piss, he expected Maksim or Ihvon as before but this time it's Alanna that came to see him. They talk.

[…]

"a warm memory. Something worth living for. And at that point… "

"So we're going to skip all of that.,I don't think you're gonna kill yourself. Your bond wasn't ripped from you. She took it. So have you decided what you're going to do now?"

"Have I worn out my welcome? "

"The three of us, we are going back to the Tower tomorrow. Will you come with us?"

[…]

"I wish you could've known Moiraine before. "

"Before what? "

"Something happened to her. About years ago now. A year or two before she bonded you. One day she was simply… changed. The way water becomes ice, and you look at it and wonder how it was ever water before. "

"Was she happier, then?"

"I don't know. I don't know if she's ever been happy. "

Later during the day, in the afternoon, he talks with Maksim.

[…]

"Moiraine has left the bond masked for… the last six months or so."

"I thought I was the only Warder who could go that long. When Alanna first bonded me, it was miserable for everyone. I didn't like having an audience in my head, and she didn't like the show. So, the three of us talked it through, and we decided that she would mask her bond with me. Except in battle. And bed."

"Does the Tower know about this? "

"Have you ever known a marriage that is exactly the same as another? I know the others will tell you…you can't go back to Moiraine. But I'm proof that you can. If you want to."

And finally, at night he talks with Ihvon.

[…]

"It's something she said. You keep saying it to yourself over and over. A thousand cuts for her one. People don't understand that we quiet ones… are quiet because the conversation's always… playing out in our own heads."

"She said that, all these years… Mm…she never considered me an equal. "

"Of course not. We are not their equals, Lan. We're not supposed to be. An Aes Sedai can… call down lightning, raise mountains. The rest of the world only sees their power. We see their weakness. We remind them that they are not gods."

"I wouldn't think that… Alanna needed a reminder."

"Yeah, well, she knows we want the same thing as her. "

"What's that? "

"The triumph of the Light over the Dark. And dessert after. "

"What about Moiraine? What does she want? "

"Maybe that's the problem. I don't think I know anymore. "

While they're talking, Maksim who was meditating with them but left them alone before they started talking, found the old and worn out piece of paper that Lan previously took from Moiraine. He shows it to Alanna, who reads it and immediately understand what it could mean about Lan and maybe Moiraine too. Is he a dark friend ? Are they dark friends ? Later during the night, while Lan is asleep, Ihvon joins them and they talk it out, outside the house, Ihvon then reads it and they figure out that it's a prophecy in the Old Tongue about a forsaken, specifically about the Daughter of the Night, Lanfear. They're not sure of what to think yet, but they now suspect Lan.

E05: Damane

In this episode we do not follow Lan, Alanna, Ihvon or Maksim. There's is no point of view for them while they're travelling together but we can add 2 nights and a day to the counter. It's been 4 days and 4 nights away from Moiraine and as many days and nights spent with Alanna and her warders for Lan. However, we do get Verin's point of view.

After just arriving at the Tower, she asked after Nynaeve and Egwene but it turned out that they were nowhere to be found. Not in their rooms, not doing chores or in class and somehow, it was the same for the Daughter-heir of Andor, Elayne. They seemed to have disappeared so she went to see Sheriam Sedai, the current Mistress of Novices to try and understand where they could have vanished.

[…]

"Why, Verin Sedai. I was unaware you'd be visiting us."

[…]

"Uh, what can I do for you, Sister?"

"I was hoping to have a word with two of the girls in your care, Egwene al'Vere and Nynaeve al'Meara. Do you know where I might find them?"

"Uh, they are likely busy doing their chores. "

"In fact, they aren't. Nor are they in their class, nor in their rooms. And, um, also the Daughter-Heir of Andor is nowhere to be found."

"Is it possible they may have left Tower grounds?"

"The Daughter-Heir? It's worth taking a look, don't you think? "

"Oh. Uh… Oh, goodness, yes. Here it is. A visit to Elayne's home in Caemlyn. The three were signed out just the other day."

"That seems worth remembering. "

"It is. I, um…I don't know how it slipped my mind, frankly."

"It's quite unusual".

"That it is."

[…]

"Oh, yeah, I have another question for you. I was in the library asking after a book, Meditations on the Kindling Flame? Oh, yes, I've been meaning to return it. It's in my room, actually. Do you need it? Just for a short passage on the Amyrlin Tetsuan, uh… if you could. "

Verin went to the library before going to Sheriam and asks Nomy and Yassica about the "new very powerful Novices".

We don't actually see this happening, but since she went to the tower knowing about Moiraine's adopted kids and particularly about Rand, she must have wanted to meet them as opposed to being able to meet the Dragon Reborn himself ( being bothered by her insatiable curiosity again). She learns that they are nowhere to be found, knowing what link they might have with the Dragon Reborn, she finds suspicious that just after Moiraine got attacked by 3 Fades and went looking for the Dragon Reborn, again, that her girls would appear to have left tower grounds with no one knowing about their departure. With these information in mind, before going to see Sheriam, she takes some precaution to ensure that she discovers the whole truth if for some reason Sheriam was not revealing it all. Knowing all of this, we can deduce that she had the following course of action:

Go to the Library and asks her fellow trusted brown sisters about the girls, after she tells her that it seems like they're not in the tower anymore, She asks them to help if she suspects that Sheriam, might not be telling her the whole truth during their talk.

ask about a book she borrowed and did not return yet, so that they can use it's mention as a signal and use it as a diversion (Meditation on the Kindling Flame).

Look for Ny, Eggy and Elayne

Ask and look around for them

Go to Sheriam and ask about the girls disappearance and determine whether it would be wise to use the backup plan.

Signal to Yassica that they're following the plan, that their conversation is coming to an end and that they'll soon get out of her study.

Distract Sheriam long enough so that Yassica retrieves all of the supposedly useful information.

Meet Yassica to talk about her findings.

Get the names of every Aes Sedai who left the tower in the last few days because it seems that a weave of compulsion was used on Sheriam (so Black Ajah).

Get the prophecies about the DR for Moiraine ? (not sure that she ever did)

Liandrin cross examination

Liandrin successfully fails

[…]

"I, um, I thought you were in Jurene hunting a young man suspected of channeling. "

"Luckily it was nothing."

"Hmm. "

"But… I did… bring back some white asparagus. If you'd like some. It's a delicacy from the village. You can only… "

"Procure them there and only at this time of year. "

"Yes."

[…]

"That's strange. Novices shouldn't be allowed to… "

"Well, they've, uh… they've gone to a name day ceremony in Caemlyn. "

"I'd heard on the road back that a royal envoy going to Caemlyn was attacked south of here. "

"By whom?"

"Uh, a soldier at the inn. He said it was… bandits or Whitecloaks. But if the girls were with them… Come, we must talk to the Keeper immediately. Those girls are worth more than gold itself. Hurry."

Even though her suspicions about Liandrin are at an all time high, I think that she did go with her to go "talk to the Keeper". It's the last time we see her before Cairhien.

E06: Eyes Without Pity

It's been 4 days and 4 nights, Moiraine got to Rand the night before and finally separated him from Lanfear. Defeated and her plans for the Dragon Reborn interrupted.

MOIRANE AND RAND

[…]

Lanfear: "But, if you actually want to work with me… I have one condition. "

Moiraine: "What did she say?"

"I have to go."

"Where? Did she tell you where… "

"No. Away from you. That was her condition. If she sees us together again, she'll kill you".

Lanfear, goes to Liandrin who she's been prying on in the World of Dreams. They talk.

[…]

"Ishamael said he'd freed you, but I…"

"Tell me, why do you work for him? For Ishamael? You hate men. With one exception, it seems."

[…]

"Men hurt us… betray us, and still, we love them. You swore your oaths to keep him alive, but this is not life. "

"I know. "

"He's holding you back. The last tie to the girl you used to be. The girl who was beaten and starved, and forced to marry before she bled. "

"I know. "

"And that's why I'm here, to do what you can't. A gift only one woman can give to another."

[…]

"You swore your oaths to the Dark, not to Ishamael. You cannot take them back. It's impossible. But there are many paths to walk through the night."

(optional but recommended) : Torashi's thoughts about Lanfear and Liandrin

Liandrin ends up switching sides at the end of this conversation. She will now aid Lanfear, not Ishy and Lanfear gives her the task of killing Moiraine (it's the 2nd assassination attempt). She needs to get rid of her but can't kill her herself because she wants Rand to trust her and believe in her and her cause.

Meanwhile, Moiraine is in Cairhien with Rand and at some point she attempts to write a letter in response to her "Dearest Siuan" to update her on the situation and finally tell her the truth about being stilled but she can't. At least, not yet. Only, she did not expect Lan to overtake her.

Lan's point of view (during night 4)

It's night, Lan, Alanna, Maksim and Ihvon are travelling. We don't know where exactly they're going but we can expect them to be going towards the Tower as it was what was planned. All this time spent with them, Lan has been pondering on the idea, that, maybe, Moiraine, really is not stilled but something else. He does not know what but he needs to at least dissipate his doubts. On the other side, Alanna, Maksim and Ihvon still suspects Lan of being a Dark Friend. During their trip, they purposefully choose to stop at a Forsaken temple to observe his behavior and judge him. Lan having these doubts in the back of his mind, wants to get to the Amyrlin seat, Siuan Sanche, who happens to be Moiraine's secret wife. He needs more information on the forsaken and needs to know where to find Siuan, so that she can help him dissipate his doubts ( he understands the old tongue- he understood what Ihvon meant by "Blood calls blood") and help him find how to help Moiraine.

Alanna : "Here's as good a place to stop as any. I'm dying for some tea."

Lan: "This is a temple to the Forsaken. Interesting choice."

Maksim: "Shelter's shelter. "

Lan: "We'll need the Amyrlin's permission for me to return to the Tower. Moiraine's banishment applies to me until our bond is formally removed from Tower records."

Alanna: "The Amyrlin won't be back for another few days yet. She's returning from a visit to Caemlyn."

Lan: "Forsaken. Do you believe they had powers the Aes Sedai have lost? Weaves this Age has forgotten?"

Ihvon: "They were the generals of the Dark One's army. The things they did, our Aes Sedai would never even consider."

Alanna: "What you're willing to do changes depending on what you're faced with."

[sometime later Alanna, Maksim and Ihvon are supposed to be distracted, having fun in their tent. Lan attempts to leave but they were watching him all along. He's cornerded by Ihvon and Maksim then trapped in the One Power by Alanna.]

Maksim : "It's rude to leave while your friends are sleeping."

Ihvon: "Ruder still to use your weapon against them."

Lan: "I don't want to fight you. "

Maksim: Rejection's a relatively new experience. You'll have to forgive me for asking, but… where are you going, old friend?

Lan : That is my business.

[…]

Alanna: "The Amyrlin did not banish you from Tar Valon. You know that. You wanted me to tell you where she is. Why?"

Lan: "I need to find her."

Alanna: "What do you want from Siuan Sanche ?"

Alanna: "You will tell us the truth, al'Lan Mandragoran. We will kill you were you stand if you don't."

Lan: "We found the Dragon Reborn."

[Lan goes to Siuan to tell her the truth about her wife, so that she can help him check whether he was right to doubt a forsaken's ability to still someone alone and help her.]

It's the last time we see them before the new day starts. They had all night to talk to each other, research (if needed) and come up with a plan.

DURING DAY 5

-MORNING

Lan is preventing Rand from leaving to go to Falme, alone, without Moiraine. He's accompanied by Alanna, Maksim and Ihvon.

Moiraine sends Jonas to give a letter to a trusted sister of hers of the Blue Ajah so that she can "get it where it needs to go" (To Siuan I suppose). She apologises to Barthy and he hugs her, they're interrupted by Anvaere.

"The Amyrlin Seat is here, in Cairhien, with 14 Aes Sedai, and she's demanded an audience with you."

Liandrin's in Cairhien, thanks to her, we know that Siuan summoned them without disclosing why.

"The last time the Amyrlin Seat called 14 sisters to meet with her in Cairhien, we installed a new king on the Sun Throne."

"Well, maybe this Amyrlin is a little more frivolous daughter."

"Hmm. "

"We'll have to wait and see."

In this part, we learned that :

Lan was suspicious from the moment that he learned how Moiraine got stilled by Ishy.

He doubted what his next step should be and thanks to Ihvon and Maksim, he knew that he had to get back and COULD go back to Moiraine.

He needed to get to Siuan before so that she could help him get back to Moraine and check whether he could have been right or not about her not being stilled.

He told Alanna about Rand and never disclosed that Moiraine could not channel or that Siuan and her were working together or that they are lovers.

He went to see Siuan, they talked and planned an intervention to save Moiraine from herself.

Lanfear used Domon to get to Moiraine trough the fades to kill her before she could do anything about Rand. (educated guess when informed by E08)

Lanfear rallied Liandrin to her cause and tasked her to take care of Moiraine for her. (educated guess when informed by E08)

Verin now knows about the dragon and is going to the Tower to look for prophecies about the dragon for Moiraine.

Verin suspected Liandrin of being Black Ajah and of being able to use the weave of compulsion and left with her to "go see the keeper"

Siuan, Lan, Alanna, Ihvon and Maksim went to Cairhien

Siuan summoned 14 Aes Sedai there but did not disclose the reason why and demanded an audience with Moiraine

Lan prevented Rand from leaving without Moiraine for Falme accompanied by Alanna, Ihvon and Maksim.

Part 2. Liuan : Their off screen talk

Thanks to part 1, we can be assured that Siuan was the one who showed up at Cairhien and not the Amyrlin Seat. It was about Moiraine not the mission or Rand. They were secondary motives and afterthoughts. All that mattered when she saw Lan, was Moiraine. It would have been five days since she answered to Moiraine from their previous letter and she still did not have an answer, so she was already worried. In E06, when Moiraine attempts to write to Siuan before Barthy interrups her. It either was the first letter from E01 or a follow up one that Siuan sent out of worry. Lan showing up alone, probably was horrifying. As for Lan, is sole purpose and worry from the night Moiraine got "stilled" and they lost their bond was to help Moiraine, support her, be close to her again. Basically as he said:

Moiraine: "I don't know what you think you'll gain from this."

Lan: "Hopefully, everything we've lost."

Now onto the talk.

credit: @aflawedfashion

What we can deduce from E07 and the previous episodes we just deep dived into is that Lan told her more than she had just been stilled. He confirms that he went to Siuan doubtful near the end of episode 7 when he says :

"It never made sense to me, Moiraine. What you're feeling? Ishamael didn't still you. Not even a Forsaken could do that alone. It is a shield that he's tied off, which means… "

scene

He just told her what he tried to say from E02 (except this time he knows what it is if not stilling and how to fix it), but she wouldn't listen to him.

scene

So, between Liuan this is what he must have said:

Siuan, At the eye of the world, Moiraine actually fought a forsaken, he was not defeated.

She was mistaken, a few days ago she realised that we released him. We were wrong, we,lost at the eye of the world.

She's lost her ability to touch the source but she said that Ishamael stilled her alone. I don't think she's been stilled, Verin Sedai said that most stilled women ended up dying and that her behavior was not aligning with what's usually expected. After she told me that he stilled her alone I strongly doubted that she really was, I thought maybe it was something else, I told her but she brushed me off. Are they really that strong ? Can a forsaken really still someone alone ?

She's been casting me out for the last six months so I only learned about all of it 4 nights ago when she left me behind to go find Rand. He wasn't with us, she let me assume he died and let him leave.

She forced me to stay back with Alanna Sedai and her warders by threatening me of letting her take my bond by force. They were to take me back to the tower but before Moiraine left me I took a poem she had in her saddle, it was about Lanfear. Ishamael released her, Alanna Sedai found it and cornered me earlier as I was trying to get to you to confront me about it. She wouldn't let me go, she thought that I was to harm you and a dark friend, she was ready to kill me so I had to tell her about the dragon reborn so that she'd let me go.

Lan told her and knew everything she needed to know to be able to help her wife as she's always been doing. Only, this time, Moiraine would have to stay out of the loop. She's emotionally unstable and is not in a place where she could allow herself to think of such a possibility anymore, giving her hope for no reason wouldn't make for anything good.

optional but recommended : Thoughts about why Liuan decided to keep Moiraine out of the loop

We now wonder, what did they plan ?

Part 3. Liuan : The Plan

Before diving into this part, we need to know what might have happened between them beside their talk.

What can we deduce happened ?

Lan tells her everything and Siuan comes up with the plan and tells him what he'll have to do and they'll obviously use Rand as a pretext (well, Siuan will).

(I used to think that she could have not know as soon as he'd tell her since Moiraine herself did not think that a Forsaken wouldn't be able to do that but after further research and taking into account the fact that Lan immediately suspected it and that Moiraine judgement was clouded by her emotions, I now think that Siuan knew as soon as he told her. Anyway, whether she needed to check or not they had their plan which was not about the dragon in case you forgot but about Moiraine.)

Now, onto the discussed plan:

Siuan explains :

Lan you'll :

Get the boy, try to make him understand that he'll be fine but do not tell him the truth, we can't trust that he won't talk to Moiraine or that nobody will spy on you. I'll meet him and try and do the same and use our meeting as my main motive for coming to Cairhien, also, we'll need him to unshield her as I can't see Saidin (men half of the One power).

You'll check with Logain to know if we were right about her being shielded, we have to be sure before attempting anything.

Check if she ever wanted to kill herself if you have the chance.

Everything may not go as planned so be ready not to reveal that there's more than me meeting the boy and follow along with whatever I do.

This is what you'll have to do to un-shield her if we were right

If we get attacked you'll take her there. This will be our escape route in case we ever need it.

As for Alanna and her warders they'll be on the look out.

Most importantly, keep her safe, be careful and stand by her.

Siuan

I'll

Summon 14 Aes sedais and take them with me to Cairhien since we have 2 Forsaken on the loose trying to get him, they'll be useful in case we get attacked.

Meet and talk to Moiraine and distract her from what you'll be doing.

Meet the boy and try to make him understand that i'm on his side.

Alanna, Maksim and Ihvon

Look out for the Forsaken

Alert

Backup

Goals

The goal is to help Moiraine and that is it, probably discuss their next course of action regarding the plan since she might be stilled (which she can do with no problem since she doesn't know for sure that she isn't). As i've stated before, Rand and the mission in this case were the after thoughts as it is Siuan that decided to go to Cairhien and not the Amyrlin Seat.

Moiraine: "Siuan said you were leaving. Where were you going? "

(While they're the same person, they are not the same characters, Siuan isn't the Amyrlin Seat and the Amyrlin Seat is not Siuan but only a part of her, I thought the show made it clear enough but I'm reminding you all again anyway as i've seen that a lot (even other theorist and siuaraine shippers) seems to think that Siuan really went to Cairhien to take Rand away from Mo, cage him and stuff as if they did not show us that it simply was not how it worked between them and that she simply was not her position at all. Most misunderstood and underappreciated character sincerely (those who voted Hopper, i'm looking at y'all). Anyway, SHE IS NOT THE AMYRLIN SEAT AND THE AMYRLIN SEAT IS NOT SIUAN BUT ONLY A PART OF HER.)

So, Siuan shielding and putting Rand in a cell was improvised as he was leaving without Moiraine knowing and she needed him to be around anyway.

Daes dae'Mar : The Game of Houses, Liuan's plan put into practice

House Sanche-Mandragoran

Siuaraine meeting in the Sun Palace

Goals :

Meet and talk to Moiraine and distract her from what Lan will be doing.

Use meeting Rand as her main motive for coming to Cairhien.

[MOIRAINE] Mother. [SIUAN] Leave us, Daughter. She's no threat to me. [LEANE] I'll be right outside, Mother. [SIUAN] Why didn't you tell me? Why didn't you tell me you'd been stilled? Six months of letters, Moiraine. And not one word about this…this violation. [MOIRAINE] Well, what else did Lan tell you?

[MOIRAINE] That you threatened to let Alanna take his bond without his permission. You know he told her. That you found the Dragon. (half truth and deflection, she knew about the forsaken and talks about it later,)

[MOIRAINE] Why are you here, Siuan?

[SIUAN] I've let you carry this burden for years, love. You've given everything for it. From here on out, I row beside you. ( half truth, because she also was there to help Lan check her powers)

Moiraine: [SCOFFS] (not convinced)[gets hypnotised by Siuan's touch]

[SIUAN] It's time I met Rand al'Thor. (deflection)

scene

Lan takes Rand and prepare him to meet Siuan

Goals:

Prepare him to meet Siuan :

make him understand without telling him the truth that Siuan is on his side. Even though she's the Amyrlin. ( for the reason mentioned before but also, it's Cairhien)

[LAN] Tuck in your shirt. [RAND] What does the Amyrlin Seat want from me? Is this a trial? I saw what she did to the last man who called himself Dragon. (scared) [LAN] Is that why you ran from the Eye of the World? Why you hid here? (wonders why he left and questions if it was because he was afraid about sharing Logain's fate) [RAND] I left to protect the people I love. (angrily answers, offended by the assumption) [LAN] Don't be so selfish. You were born to protect this world. Every person in it. Not just the ones you love. (reminds him of his responsabilities as the Dragon Reborn)

Listen to me. The Amyrlin's a smart woman. She's a good woman. (reassures him about Siuan) And she comes from humbler beginnings than you. (she's not what she seems) [RAND] Does Moiraine know you're doing this? (asks about the only Aes Sedai he kind of trust) [LAN] There's one rule above all others for being a man. Whatever comes, you face it on your feet. ( ignores and teach him what his answer should be to the fear he's currently feeling)

Put this on. Give me your blade.

Heron Dips the Wing. You've been learning sword forms. (proud uncle moment) [RAND] I've learned a couple of things. [LAN] Keep the sword. (let him keep his sword as he is still stressed)

If the Amyrlin's afraid of you, it won't be for a sword. (build his confidence up)

If you're going to use one of the forms, use Cat Crosses the Courtyard, keep your back straight, every muscle loose. As if hung from a wire at the top of your head. (teaching moment)

Go. The Amyrlin waits.

scene

Siuan meets Rand while Mo'an are talking

[RAND] As you've summoned me, Mother, so I've come. I stand ready. [SIUAN] Do you now, boy? Lan has prepared you, I see. What else did he tell you? [RAND] That you aren't exactly what you seem. [SIUAN] Most people are not. In this world, it is wise to guard your truths, but not us. Not today. (she won't lie, since she can't but she's going to aes sedai her way out of his questions not to reveal blatlantly that she's on his side) I have questions for you. Answer truthfully.

[LATER]

[RAND] And then what? [SIUAN] You say you've been careful. How many times have you channeled? [RAND] Not many. Not deliberately. [SIUAN] You will continue to channel, as sure as roe makes fish. You can't help it. And if you don't learn to control it, you won't live long enough to go mad. (INFODUMP) [RAND] What kind of a choice is that? (when did she give him a choice exactly, please ?), (ignored question) Dying or going mad and killing everyone I love? (ignored) What if I'm tired of being a spoke in the Wheel? (acknowledged) [SIUAN] You're not a spoke, boy. You are the water that turns the Wheel itself or dashes it to pieces. (answers)

Do you know what Tower law says the Amyrlin must do if she finds the Dragon Reborn? (question and attemps at making him understand) [RAND] Gentle him? [SIUAN] Gentle him? No. How do you fight the Dark One without the One Power?

Some of my Red daughters would want that, I suppose, but… (beware of the reds basically) we are meant to cage you. (teaching, infodumping)

Keep you shielded, channeling only when we want, what we want. And when we go to fight the Last Battle, you will be the greatest weapon in our arsenal. But not our general.

This is not a conversation. (yes it is) You already made your decision. (indeed, 20 years ago dumbass) You made it before you ever met me. (how do you know? she made it looking in your other mom eyes the day you were born and ruined their retirement plans, BEHAVE RAND)

I won't live in your cage. (did she say SHE, would cage you or that the Amyrlin was MEANT to cage you ? she infodumped, you stupid boy)

(she had no other choice but to shield him as he was getting hostile, then Mother got mad, i can't blame her I would have too (actually I did), because how can you be so dense, mistaken and dumb, like why would you think you'd be able to do anything against the Amyrlin Seat, when you know nothing about channeling- je souffle (I sigh), je souffle, je souffle. Il fatigue(he tires).)

scene

Six months you've known what you are, and… you've learned nothing.

Six months! Huh?

She taught you nothing. (she's mad, and it takes a lot to get her to snap according to New spring so leave my girl alone, Mo took the decision alone, said nothing and did teach him nothing also from an objective stand point, she's not necessarily talking about chanelling. She's been over their whole discussion since he pulled a Nynaeve while asking about being tired of being a spoke or whatever )

A single Aes Sedai can handle you like baitfish. ( just an astute and accurate observation made with an iconic fish metaphor)

[SIGHS] (me too)

We would've been so much better off if you were a girl. (i'm sorry not sorry to the men who got butt hurt by this comment but she's right, had it been possible it would have been so much better and it's an objective truth, she basically stated a fact so get over it)

scene

Mo'an talk during Rand and Siuan are talking

Goals:

Check if she ever wanted to kill herself ( symptoms of stilling basically)

Do not to reveal that there's more than Siuan meeting Rand

[MOIRAINE] I don't know what you think you'll gain from this. [LAN] Hopefully, everything we've lost. [MOIRAINE] Leave. I have nothing to say to you. [LAN] I have a question for you. And I hope someday you'll forgive me for asking it. ( a single question huh ?)

After you were stilled by Ishamael, has there been a time… in all these months when you thought about ending it? [MOIRAINE] killing myself?

I read the Tower records. (keep that in mind,take a mental or physical note.) There have only been two women in history who were cut off who didn't. Most did it within the year. [MOIRAINE] No, I didn't. (Rand & Moiraine getting offended by Lan's perfectly reasonable and logical assumption)

Not for one second.

Because I know that protecting Rand, guiding him, that is the only thing that matters. More than me, more than you. More than anything. [LAN] That's what I thought. (happy Lan)

[MOIRAINE] And this whole thing you're doing with Siuan, it puts all of it… the Last Battle,the fate of the world… in jeopardy. (Yes, it's true but do I need to remind her "when have ever followed the rules?" or simply that these two never let her not take care of herself? WHY DID SHE EVEN EXPECT THEM TO CARE ABOUT THE WORLD IF SHE WASN'T FINE ? SUCH A DEPRESSED LOVABLE AND ANNOYING PUFFERFISH).

I apologise for my lack of professionalism,

It will definitely happen again though,you've been warned.

What isn't she telling me? (was not convinced by Siuan earlier, just hypnotised)

You have to trust someone at some point, Moiraine. You can't do this by yourself. You can't. And if it's not going to be me… then I thought it might at least be her. (deflect)

scene

Siuaraine, Mo'an, Liuan fight (+ red haired misbehaving toddler)

Goal:

distract Moiraine so that Lan can do his thing

improvised: shield rand and prevent him from leaving, as he's shown that he's ready to be hostile and harm, he's caged and to be kept shielded by Leane who knows nothing but that she has to shield him.

[SIUAN] Let them through. [MOIRAINE] Release him, Siuan. ( Mo, you don't even know what he did) Now. [SIUAN] No. We tried our way, Moiraine. -> true

And we nearly lost everything. -> true

The Tower's laws have stood for , 3000 years.-> infodumb

It's time we obeyed them. -> it was time from the moment they became accepted, it was already time in their hut when Moiraine was asking when did they EVER followed these rules. [LAN ] This is not what we agreed to. (true but he also remembered that bro was leaving alone when he found him and will stay quiet and follow along from now on)

[MOIRAINE] The Reds will gentle him.

[SIUAN] Not while I hold the Seat. -> true, even if she really wanted to follow the rules, she wouldn't let them.

[MOIRAINE] The Tower is filled with your enemies. -> true, she knows

You're this sure of your power? -> true, and siuan stays quiet because she can't Aes sedai her way out of this one

We each had a task, Siuan.

I was to find the Dragon Reborn. You were to get the Tower ready to support him. Or have you forgotten that day? -> something here snapped in her brain people, Moiraine angered her with this one and she loses her temper ( which is, AGAIN, hard to do according to New spring in case I needed to remind you)

[SIUAN]

Of course I have not forgotten.

But you were supposed to be with him, ready to shield him if he starts to go mad.

Yet here you are, stilled. (still isn't sure and it's what it appears to be so she can say it, and she is pissed)

You can't control him. -> true

You can't guide him. -> true

Can you imagine, Moiraine, if one of the Forsaken got their hands on him? (she gave herself away there, remember in the first meeting when I referenced this ? )

He's no more ready now than he was before you found him. -> true

You left the fate of the world to chance… -> true, she let him leave at the eye when she was not sure of what the fight they just "won" meant + she never told her that he left because she couldn't tell her why she let him leave and there was no other reason than she couldn't protect him anymore from the dark and himself and it was best if he laid low + it meant that telling, and admitting that she'd never touch the source again could be delayed

… for your pride. -> so yes but for those not agreeing with her statement there, we do not care, she just need to believe something to be able to say it. IT DOES NOT MATTER.

Tomorrow, when Queen Galldrian returns, we shall announce him as Dragon here in Cairhien… with Sisters by our side to show he is under our control. -> he's supposed to leave with Moiraine as soon as she's unshielded if they were right, no one knows about Rand but them and those who learned about it this season and it's one of the possible choice they could have made by actually having a conversation about what to do if Moiraine hadn't come in there after Lan told her to trust, ordering Siuan around, wanting to hear nothing else, when she didn't even know why he was shielded (he deserved the time out sincerely.)

Prepare him for what is to come.

I think she was saying this to both of them, and it had a double meaning.

Lan: Still on board, even though things got heated carry on with the plan, just lost my temper. ( would explain why the camera shows him and not Moiraine even though the whole conversation had been only between Siuaraine)

Mo and us: yeah i'm apparently ditching the plan we sacrificed 20 years for, and the one I came up with Lan, last night, without a discussion, just because i'm pissed after I told you her earlier that I was there to support you her. Yes, that is right, this is what is happening.

scene

Since there had been no objection, no attempt at bargaining or anything, just plain old silence. Siuan thought Moiraine had dropped the ball. She let her be, and Moiraine chose to stay with Rand. ( good because she'll still be distracted even though they're mad at each other right now) Had Moiraine been imprisoned too, she wouldn't have been allowed to be in the same cell, and Siuan would have disclosed that she had been stilled to Leane but she did not. Siuan trusted her, still, even though they just had a fight about their kid and knew that she had been Aes sedaying her way out of transparency for months. So,to her everything was mostly going according to plan but then Rand happened and introduced another player to the game that was currently unfolding before our innocent, untrained eyes and unaware minds.

House Lanfear- Al'Thor

Goals:

Get rid of Moiraine

Get Rand to Falme alone

[RAND] What is happening to me? [MOIRAINE] You've been shielded from the One Power. [RAND] Um… it feels… [MOIRAINE] As if you've lost everything you ever were and everything you could possibly be. Don't worry, it's temporary. She has to channel to keep the shield in place, but when it drops, you'll feel yourself again. [MOIRAINE] Siuan said you were leaving. (off-screen first meeting)

Where were you going? [RAND] Falme. Egwene is there. Ishamael has her. [MOIRAINE] Lanfear showed you this in the dream world? [RAND] I know they want me to go there. But why Falme, of all places? [MOIRAINE] The Dragon is supposed to proclaim himself there. "Bannered 'cross the sky in fire." [RAND] They want everyone to know who I am before they try to kill me. If they need me in Falme, then they certainly don't want me being held prisoner by the Amyrlin Seat.

He happened, and Moiraine broke Siuan's trust there once again by indulging in it.

As Justine Juel Gillmer( S1E06 and S2E07 writer) pointed out and explained : Moiraine feels like she lost Rand to Lanfear, operates without a clear path to follow for the first time and is all alone. She focuses only on Rand, nothing else matters (as i've pointed before myself too, during Mo'an's talk). (in the bonus)

So, she does nothing else than what she felt she could do : She stays by his side and tries to win him back. She says nothing,let him and indulges in his tendency to call on Lanfear (the dark) for help, thinking that she would be able to outsmart her even though she knows that she wouldn't have been able to see their interaction in the world of dreams, she trust Rand to give her all of the information that she'd need to know if something was wrong and Rand ends up asking Lanfear. A fair price to pay to gain some of his trust back: trusting each other and only one another and further harming the trust Lanfear made sure they would build while she was away and unaware. Without realising it, she built trust in one of her relationship, while harming one of hers too.

She breaks the trust that Siuan chose to still have in her, even though she knew that she was not in the right head space right now because of the shield, by actually trying to escape when she had dropped the ball earlier.

scene

Meanwhile, Liandrin is working on fulfilling the mission she has been given by Lanfear in episode 6. […]

[LIANDRIN] I remember her at that age. You have the look of her, you know. [BARTHANES] Why are you here, Aes Sedai? [LIANDRIN] To deliver an order. (from Lanfear) [BARTHY] What does our master ask of me? ( he assumed it was from Ishy or the DO) [LIANDRIN] Remove her from the board. [BARTHY] She is my aunt. [LIANDRIN] Exactly. Even she will be unprepared for this. Do it today. She's being held in a cell in the palace. (Lanfear or you got this one wrong Liandrin, she's in there voluntarily.)Oh. And if your mother suspects anything… take care of her, too.

scene

Meanwhile House Lanfear-Al'Thor,

[LANFEAR] You didn't even make it out of the city. ( she knew already) [RAND] I need your help. I'm in a cell in the Sun Palace. The Amyrlin's holding me. [LANFEAR] I know. [RAND] Can you get me out? [LANFEAR] Hmm. Isn't Moiraine with you? Surely she could do something. [RAND] Maybe she will. Maybe I won't need you. [LANFEAR] Oh, I do like it when you try to manipulate me. [RAND] Can you get me out or not, Lanfear?

scene

On the other side,

House Sanche-Mandragoran

Goals:

check with Logain to know if they were right about her being shielded, They have to be sure before attempting anything.

Alanna and her warders will be on the look out.

[ALANNA] Through there. What did he say? Does the Daughter of the Night walk in our world? [MAKSIM] Forsaken. Dragon Reborn. I miss the farm, Alanna. I even miss your cousins. [ALANNA] Come now. Did you expect we would fight the Last Battle against an army of kittens?

[LOGAIN] I would offer you a match, but.. stones is a gentleman's game. Tell your master that I'm still waiting for her to keep her promise. Or you can just run me through with your blade now, save her the trouble. [LAN] I can do better than that. You can see male weaves. What do you see when you look at Moiraine? [LOGAIN] A desperate, lonely woman who has given her life to a cause… beyond her understanding. [LAN] A half a year in an asylum, and you're a madman still. [LOGAIN] Madness is expecting a straight answer from the man you helped lock away. There are weaves on her. From a man. Thousands of strands pulled together, held in place, but nothing being channeled into them. [LAN] How is that possible? [LOGAIN] I don't know, it's just like…

scene

House Lanfear-Al'Thor

[PEOPLE SCREAMING IN BADASS LANFEAR ANNOUNCING HER ARRIVAL]

Meanwhile House Sanche- Mandragoran,

[ALANNA] There's a fIre. In the Foregate. [LOGAIN] The key. [LAN] You think I've forgotten what you did to Kerene and Stepin? You will get this key when they take you back to the White Tower. There are two Brown Sisters that are desperate to study a man who can channel.

[LAN] Go. (to Moiraine) [LANFEAR] 3000 years pass and I'm back to this.

scene

And another player comes in, unexpectedly,

House Damodred

Goals:

Save Moiraine

Save the name of House Damodred

Save herself

Get yourself absolutely adored by the Fandom in one action

[BARTHANES] You're sure my aunt's alone? [SERVANT] As you asked, my lord. And a sedative in her tea. She should be asleep already. [BARTHY]] Good. [SERVANT] Would you like me to open it, Your Grace? [ANVAERE] I didn't think you would do it. [BARTHY] Mother. No. No! No! No. [ANVAERE] Why? In Light's name, why? [BARTHANES] I did it for us. I did it for you, Mother. For our family name. Why do you think that we've risen so far so fast, Mother? I am to be king. And you would throw it all away for what? For-for her? Mother, Moiraine doesn't care about you. She trust no one. She cares about no one. She… She will leave this place, and she will not give us a second thought. [ANVAERE] I know. But there are two things my sister understands better than anyone. The difference between right and wrong, and how much harder it is sometimes to do what is right. [BARTHY] Mother. Mother, please. Mother, please. You can't tell the queen. You can't tell anybody. [BADASS, HEROIC ANVAERE] I already have. [CRYING BARTHY] Mother. Mother. Mother! No! Mother! Mother!

scene

House Lanfear-Al'thor

Goals:

release Rand while Lanfear's being the perfect diversion

give him the map leading to the Waygate.

[VERIN] The city's burning. The Amyrlin requires your strength to protect Cairhien. [LEANE] I've been told to watch the boy. [VERIN] This is an order, Leane Sedai. (from Liandrin or Lanfear?) I'll take his shield. [LEANE] Don't let her get close to you. (still doesn't know Mo is "stilled") [MOIRAINE] You are very clever with your words, Sister. (did not realise that she couldn't have known she'd need help) [VERIN] The Dragon Reborn. I'd say you've spent long enough in Cairhien, wouldn't you?

There's a Waygate hidden in the city. (how did she know she'd need to plan for this from the morning she arrived in Cairhien ? Lanfear or Liandrin but really just Lanfear has if not herself she'd give the order trough Liandrin) [MOIRAINE] That's just a rumor. [VERIN] With a grain of truth. An Ogier Stedding once stood in the inner city center. Cairhien families built right over it. Here. [VERIN] Where will you take him? [MOIRAINE] Falme. Toman Head. [VERIN] "Above Toman's Head shall he proclaim himself bannered 'cross the sky in fire." ( here's the reason you might be looking for if not for compulsion by Liandrin when she followed her to "go see the keeper") You plan to have him declare himself the Dragon Reborn. The Wheel weaves.

scene

House Sanche-Mandragoran

Goals:

If we get attacked you'll take her there. This will be our escape route in case we ever need it.

Alanna: Backup

[LAN] Good work. We'll take him from here to the Waygate. ( did not take the map or hear them speak, Verin and Thomas followed as he had the same destination than the one they had planned for Rand) Just make sure that we're not followed. [ALANNA] You're not alone in this any longer, Sister. But you need to hurry. This city is not safe. I hope you're worth this, boy. Light be with you. [LAN] Let's go.

sceane

Meanwhile, Siuan isn't worried about the dragon reborn being protected by a single abled Aes Sedai when she knows that it probably is one of the Forsaken, she carries out her duty as Aes Sedai and Amyrlin Seat with the utmost calm. She even seemed bored of it for a second. Then again, in the utmost calm and collected manner, she sees the only Aes Sedai supposed to be shielding the boy and doesn't pannick and order that they rush there and find him, NO, she calmly ask who's shielding her son and it's only when she hears Verin's name that she's not okay anymore, suddenly she needs time to process what she just heard and then leave in a rush.

[SIUAN] Link with me. [LEANE] I'm here, Mother. [SIUAN] Who's shielding the boy? [LEANE] Verin Sedai. You… you sent her. [SIUAN] Lead your Sisters and heal the injured. That boy must not leave the city. -> something is wrong I have enemies I did not expect and doubts to clear he mustn't leave before they are cleared. [EXHALES]

All the while, Lan is still oblivious that something is wrong and is just following the plan.

[LAN] It should be somewhere. There. (did not use the map) [MOIRAINE] You'll have to channel into it. Split it open with sheer force if you have to. [LAN] No, he won't. You're going to open it. [MOIRAINE] Just do it. [LAN] Look at Moiraine. With the Source. [MOIRAINE] Lan. [LAN] Not just your eyes. What do you see? [MOIRAINE] Don't. [RAND] It looks like a knot tied together. [MOIRAINE] That's im… It's impossible. (see, this woman really wouldn't allow herself to even think about it, Rand tells her he see them, yet she won't believe it)

[LAN INFODUMPING BECAUSE MOIRAINE IS STILL BEING STUBBORN ABOUT HER "STILLING"] There's a story from the Age of Legends about the Foresaken's powers… a skill that's been lost for thousands of years… to tie off weaves and leave them in place. It never made sense to me, Moiraine. (reminder that it is proof he went to Siuan with doubts about this) What you're feeling? Ishamael didn't still you. Not even a Forsaken could do that alone. It is a shield that he's tied off, which means…

[MOIRAINE] It can be removed. (finally) [LAN] Yes. [RAND] What do I need to do? [LAN] You don't have the skill to untie this knot. You'll have to cut it. [MOIRAINE] I trust you. [LAN] Go on. Cut through it. [MOIRAINE] I feel it. I feel it. Thank you. Thank you. [LAN] I am sorry it took me so long to do my duty.( it took you 4 day and nights but go off king)

scene

House Sanche-Madragoran + House Lanfear-Al'Thor

Siuan arrives, shields Rand as he was super dense and leave Lan alone.

[LAN] Stop! No!

Siuan yeets Lan to the side, she does not have the time to explains and maybe he lied to her too.

[SIUAN] Close the Waygate, Moiraine. Now. -> she needs a proof You lied to me about being stilled. -> the aes sedai way obvi

[MOIRAINE not suprised to see her as she knew they were hiding something from her, and she must have her coming with her Siuan tingle.] No. I cannot. -> ok cool you didn't but you know she doesn't literally mean lie -.- I've been more truthful with you than anyone else. -> this just means that she told her the truth more than to anyone else, not that she told her all of it. Moiraine speaking in codes is tiring sometimes.

[SIUAN reminds her, in an attempt to convice Moiraine to close the Waygate herself. ]

We failed, Moiraine. -> They did fail together At the Eye of the World, you failed. -> She did fail at the eye. The stakes are too high to fail again. -> stating facts

Close the Waygate. -> she asked

[MOIRAINE being the bratty bottom that she is] also where was she going ? SO dramatic i swear, she turns around and start walking to the Waygate as if Siuan was just going to unshield Rand and let her leave because she said no) No. [SIUAN] I don't want to force you.-> but I need and have to know.

You swore to obey me on the Oath Rod. An unbreakable oath, bound by the One Power. -> Moiraine knows , she knows she voices it because she doesn't want to have to use it, feels cornered and is trying to convince and brace herself for whatever will come of it if Moiraine ends up forcing her to use it. A real betrayal or she just violated her wife because of this damned Mission. Both, horrific for her.

Siuan… -> surely Moiraine understood after hearing this what was really going on for Siuan. She doesn't know if she can trust her anymore. For Siuan, surely Moiraine understood why she insisted so much and was ready to do what she never even though about as a possibility or as something that was anything but just wrong ( throwback to Lan's bond in the first suiaraine meeting)

Close it. -> this one feels like she's desperate at this point for her to close it there, not the same intonation at all, she's bracing herself for what is coming. No more feelings, no more asking, no more plea, no more bargaining, she has too know before it's too late, she orders. Even though, that's the intent she puts behind the intonation we can still see it on her face, hear it in her voice, see it in her eyes and in the way she moves.

[SOFTLY] Siuan… -> this one must have felt like a ruse, the same way Moiraine first rejected Siuan's touch because she knew what would happen. The facade would break into pieces and she'd give in. Here, Moiraine softly calling her name, almost like she's begging, after she's been warned, after her herself showed how much she just needed her to at least close it did not feel like something she could allow herself to hear so she cuts her off and the rest is history.

Moiraine Damodred… [MOIRAINE] No, if you have ever loved me, don't do this. [SIUAN] … I command you… … to close the Waygate.

House Lanfer-Al'Thor

[MOIRAINE surprised to even see Lanfear as she thought she escaped having to deal with her, when Verin freed her. I believe that she pieces things together here, not all of it but just enough to understand what she couldn't believe happened to her from Siuan, the last person she'd think would ever do this to her just the moment before she arrived, they did not talk but she understood]

Lanfear.

[LANFEAR LAUGHS]

[MOIRAINE] She's too strong, Siuan. Don't. No. [LANFEAR] I told you the next time I saw you two together, I'd kll her. [RAND] You're not going to touch her. Not if you want my help.

[LANFEAR] Every day you grow more like Lews.

Lucky for you, a broken Amyrlin is more useful to me than a dead one.

[SIUAN] Moiraine, please. (go)

[LAN] Moiraine, please. (come)

Highly recommend you watch this scene in particular

Conclusion

All along Daes Dae'Mar was being played, and we failed to realise that in the current game of the houses we were witnessing, there were 4 houses.

House Lanfear-Al'thor

Lanfear

Verin

Tomas

Rand

Liandrin

Barthanes

House Damodred

Moiraine

Anvaere Damodred (unknowingly)

Siuan

Lan

Alanna, Ihvon & Maksim

House Sanche-Mandragoran

Siuan

Lan

Moiraine Damodred (unknowingly)

Alanna, Ihvon & Maksim

House of The Dragon

Goals: different for each person but utltimately related the Dragon.

Rand Al'thor : leave Cairhien, to go to Falme to free Egwene

Moiraine Damodred : Help Rand, avoid Lanfear.

Siuan Sanche : Help Moiraine, Protect her and Rand from the Forsaken

Al'Lan Mandragoran : Help Moiraine, Protect her from the Forsaken and secondarily Rand.

Alanna Mosvani : Help the dragon reborn/ Moiraine

Ihvon : Help Alanna, the dragon reborn/Moiraine

Maksim : Help Alanna, the dragon reborn/Moiraine

Verin Mathwin : Help fulfill the prophecy

Tomas: Help and assist Verin

The Daugther of the night, Lanfear : Seperate Moiraine and Rand, Kill her, Get Rand to Falme

Liandrin Guirale : Kill Moiraine, Help Lanfear

Barthanes Damodred (unkowingly) : Help his house regain it's lost glory

4 houses playing against each other and for each other at the same time. What went wrong ? Everything. Who won ? No one. What was left of what was before ? Nothing.

I wanted to be a little dramatic. On a more serious note, they all lost and won something, except for Barthanes.So that is all.

To sum it all up, everything that went down with Siuan and Moiraine was genuine and real, Lan and her had a plan all along, everything was going fine until the other players of this game of houses started to place their pawns on the board to try and win the game. In the end, as they were all playing for each other and against each other at the same time no one really won.

On the first board,

Moiraine regained her powers, but still has to deal with Lanfear, Siuan is hurt and in a precarious position for both herself and their mission because she did not listen to Lan and trusted her.

Lan regained Moiraine's trust but Lanfear is still a threat and Siuan.

Rand is still manipulated and a pawn in someone else's game, no matter how much he thought he wasn't anymore because of Lanfear.

Siuan is heart broken that she had to do this to Moiraine, even though her plan still worked and Moiraine regained her powers which is a win but then again did she really win, when she's lying on the floor, hurt and surrounded by enemies, even in the tower, where she was supposed to be at her safest and strongest ?

Lanfear gets Rand but Moiraine isn't dead and she even have to deal with Lan now, as she said in E08, they're dead weight.

On the second board,

Liandrin being Black Ajah is known because of Elayne, Eggy and Nynaeve but now, even Anvaere.

Verin is black ajah and known ( or least suspected to be) because of Siuan (thanks to Leane), because she knows Verin couldn't have known about her plan to help Moiraine or known that she'd ever need to escape. Tomas goes with Verin.

Alanna and Maksim seems to have lost Ihvon.

Thank you for reading, answering the poll, carefully listening and watching. Leave a comment and tell me what you think about this theory-analysis of episode 7. I'd love to hear your opinions, answer your questions etc…

Well, it is finally over.

Onto the next one now,

Here..."Daes dae'Mar theory-analysis : What has been proved so far ?"

Siuaraine : Is Moiraine the top ?

Short, unexplained answer : NO.

Long and explained version : No but,

I don't think that Siuan is a top or that Moraine is a bottom. Not even that they are both switches. What I think is that they don't really fit into these labels anymore. (They might have at some point but not anymore, so far into their relationship). Submissive or dominant, it's something else, but "top" or "bottom": I feel are too rigid for something that's most likely fluid.

But then again, If Siuan had to be put in one of the two she would be the top but something like a service one.

"Someone who is a top in bed but likes to service the other person (mostly only doing things for the other persons pleasure ) rather then dominating them."-Urban dictionary

"An individual who applies sensation or control with the bottom's pleasure in mind, rather than their own."- Wikipedia

“A top who acts according to what pleases their bottom, which pleases them.”

Which does not fit into the multitude of narrative that are implied by her just belonging in the role of the "top".

As for Moiraine if she had to be put in one of those she would be a bottom, no doubts when it comes to New Spring but the show made this particular dynamic of theirs more complex by keeping Rosamund's ad-lib ("On your knees") in the show. Yet, she would still be a bottom and still is. Only, she wouldn't fit the narrative and implications of the role either. She'd be switching between some particular types of bottoms, she could be a regular bottom, a bratty one or a power one. It'll depend on how she feels basically or on what she needs.

A regular bottom would be what's most natural for her, whether she'd be bratty or a power one would depend on how confident she feels ordering a Siuan around at the time.

"Gay terminology, Similar to a bottom, but a specific variety. A power bottom tends to be in charge, and feels most powerful when bottoming, the one who bottoms is the one on the "throne" so to speak, "taking" the Top".- Urban dictionary

"A bottom or submissive sex partner who refuses or fights against the top/dominant partners orders in a bratty way" - Urban dictionary

Let's demonstrate how she still is the "bottom" (reminder that I think these labels are ill fitting for them).

1. Moraine's been flustered any time Siuan was around or she thought about her :

During the first Siuaraine meeting in the Hall of the White Tower, as soon as Siuan arrives and turns around, Moiraine is thrown off balance. Her eyelashes flutter uncontrollably, her breathing is irregular, so much so that she breathes trough her mouth as if she needed to catch her breath because she had stopped breathing the whole time (also, when Siuan lift her gaze to look at her she instantly bow, almost, if not in sync with her and everyone closely follows after). scene

Before going to the hut, when she's preparing to go to Siuan and Lan arrives we can see that she's ridiculously happy and excited of finally reuniting with her, she's eager to get there and just want Lan to finally leave so that she can go and see and be with her. As Lan is leaving she gets all flustered again just thinking about her and has to exhale to compose herself before she even starts channelling to activate her ter'angreal; scene

In the Hut, she somewhat pretends to be calm, composed and unaffected because she knows that Siuan must be mad at her about the hall. She does not move, stays quiet, just listens but then as she listens to her, looks at her, it becomes harder, she starts to smile and when Siuan notice her do so, she orders.

"Don't smile.",

Moiraine obeys.

"Am I forgiven, Mother?", she teases. Siuan is not in the mood for it and reminds her harshly.

"I hate it when you call me that. Moiraine is still not moving an inch, she waits and Siuan continues

"So much for the Amyrlin Seat remaining neutral without favourite" she stands up closes the distances between them and as she does so, Moiraine follows her with her eyes and glances at her lips before looking back into her eyes and Siuan finishes on

"No life, no love of one's own, nothing but the seat". Moiraine asks

"When have we ever followed the rules?" It's a reminder. Siuan finally touches her, she lays her hand onto her cheek and Moiraine sinks into it for a moment then looks back at her, Siuan grabs her by the neck and gently pulls her in for a kiss, a short but deep and intense kiss, she pulls back to look at her again, it's still hard to believe that she really is there, Moiraine wanted more but stays passive and

only take what she's given, she too is looking at her, she glances at her tattoos, still not touching her and only hovering her hand over her skin (I never realised before too) she realises that they are new.

"These are new" she says.

"A year, maybe two"

"you've been gone such a long time" Siuan answers softly, almost whispering, she lays her hand back on the other side of her neck and pulls her back in for a kiss, maybe more, as she does so Moiraine suddenly speaks and says something reminding her of their performance in front of the hall earlier, stopping her from going further, she's surprised, looks at her, considers saying something and prefer not to and questions her instead with her look. She (might ) thinks

"is it what you want?" and somehow she knows, her puzzled expression turns into a quick smirk before changing for the last time before she descends. It had turned into an assertive, almost intimidating look warning her about what was to come.What did Moiraine do ? She ordered.

"On your knees." scene

( Yeah, i ended up writing it like I was writing a fanfic, i know, was not intended, I guess you can't escape this happening when you describe this kind of scene. )

2. Moiraine cannot challenge or resist Siuan :

In the hut :

After she composed herself before coming in :

Do not approach because she knows Siuan's mad and that she'll get scolded for the hall.

Is told not to smile, obeys no questions asked or backtalk.

Later,

Siuan : Rest.

''You think I can sleep now'' (resist order)

kisses "I'm here"

close her eyes to rest (obeys)

scene

When going to see Siuan in her study :

Ny : Let her wait

Mo: "Siuan Sanche only waits for one woman and it's not you."" while leaving to go see her wife at the speed of gays that she regained in E08 whether she's followed or not.

She will not risk making her wife angry or upset even though she'd actually be waiting for her and she knows it. (she also probably just wanted to be the most amount of time near and around hee when she could be before she'd have to leave but I included this scene because it also gives use some insight into their relationship a part from the fact that it tells us that Mo is head over heels for Siuan, possesive about her as she won't share any of the special treatments she gets by being Mother's favorite, not even with them and that she's proud and overly confident (in a good way) when it comes to her wife and will not hesitate to be more open when she can allow it because no ones around)

In Siuan's study :

Just watching and listening to Siuan, we can see that Moiraine's visibly fawning, melting,folding, everything over her. Had Ny and Eggy been able to pay attention to something else but Siuan they would have seen it too.

The woman has more colors on her face there, after their night together than during all of S1 and S2 combined.

scene

In the Hall (oath rod marriage) :

Siuan: ''By the light and the hope of my salvation and rebirth, I, Moiraine Sedai swear to obey the judgement of the Amyrlin Seat and never return til she calls me home or may the creator face turn from me and darkness consume my soul.''

Moiraine: ''By the light and the hope of my salvation and rebirth, I, Moiraine Sedai, DO swear to HONOUR and obey Siuan Sanche, daugther of the river, clever as pike and strong as the tides and never return until she calls me home….. or may the creator face turn from me and darkness consume my soul"

In her family home, in Cairhien, when Anvaere tells her that the Amyrlin Seat demanded an audience with her:

she's visibly distraught

S2: In the hall of the Sun palace

Their meeting follows the same pattern as the one they had in 1x06 ( shoutout to those who saw my thread on the similarities between these two episodes on twitter), even though, this time she's not overjoyed by the idea but rather apprehensive as she wanted to keep her away too, as she's had been doing with Lan.

reminder in case you don't how that's what she had intended on doing with Siuan in some type of way : related post

As I as said these meetings follow the same thread:

Confrontation ( Why did you do this?/ Why didn't you tell me ?

Scolding-> ( idiotic risks/ Lan's consent)

Comfort ( Siuan's closes the distance and initiate contact by first laying her hand on her cheek, kiss her etc../ Siuan closes the distance, initiate contact in the same way but no kissing for obvious reasons (+ it's cairhien)

Tension/Discomfort ( Exile necessity/ "it's time I meet Rand'Al Thor")

She also pretends that she's calm and unphased but we can see that she is not able to look Siuan's eyes, that even when she does, it is part of her act and she surrenders as soon as she tries to correct and mask what she truly feeks like.(except when it's not about her, them, Lan but the dragon reborn and their mission)

When Siuan approach she leans back slightly, and when she does touch her, she fights against it.

Siuan tames her bratty bottom, and I mean that she literally does and proceeds as such:

She acknowledges the defying gesture and adjust accordingly

Instead of a caress, she chooses to cup her cheek in her hand and caresses her with her thumb instead

Moiraine folds here and there and melts into her touch and loses any ability to think of anything but Siuan until she's pulled out of it when she decides to let go of the hold that she has on her as she's telling her about her meeting Rand. For half of the sentence, her hand is still on her and Mo seems to just be lost in her eyes, as she somehow does not react at all, as if she couldn't compute what she was being told and it's only when Siuan ends and says Rand Al'Thor and finally let go of her that we finally get the reaction we'd expect from her.

scene

When they fought about Rand in the Sun Palace :

She dropped the ball when they were arguing about Rand.

After, she's angered Siuan she doesn't hold back her words anymore and at the end Mo surrenders, no backtalk, no more bargaining nothing just silence in compliance to what Siuan said would happen from now.

scene

"Siuan's dominant but she would sub for Moiraine":

As for those who agrees that, Siuan clearly is the dominant one of the two but would be more submissive in private or with Moiraine, well you have been showed thanks to the previous chapters that this simply was not true as she is still as dominant as she is when she's in public and fulfilling her role as Amyrlin Seat with Moiraine and in private. She's only softer as she actually cares about Moiraine's well being, needs and wants probably more than her own as she ended up being the one becoming Amyrlin Seat when of the two Moiraine would fit better (dominance set aside).

"Siuan's a bottom, she'd use the opportunity to let go":

For those who believes that she would be Moiraine's bottom because she'd take the opportunity to let go of having to always be in charge, I understand why you would think that. As it makes perfect sense for someone to want to let go of a mask that they had to wear all day long as it is exhausting (I understand on a personal level) but you're just mistaken about what exactly the mask she has to wear consist of.

To be brief and directly go to the point: Siuan is naturally dominant and takes on roles involving being in charge of her own volition. She's so dominant that she steps into these roles without realising it which is something that sometimes could have gotten her in trouble because of how she acted. It's as natural as breathing is, and as easy as we've all seen that channelling is for her. She doesn't pretend. This is what made the Amyrlin Seat fit her more than she fitted it.

Simply put, the Amyrlin Seat does not restrain her because she has to rule, lead, and command 24/7, this she does even without intending to do so. It's having to suppress her quirks, behaving, the superfluous manners that comes with the title and " sorinde, mashinde, obiyar isain shai".

Sorinde, Mashinde, Obiyar isain shai. ( No life, No love of one's own, Nothing but the Seat) - Siuan Sanche

e.g : Alone with wife and kids, she specifically states that it's Siuan not the Amyrlin Seat today, she actually never put on the amyrlin mode.

scene

e.g : With Rand she distances herself from her role and only includes herself in the group of Aes Sedais.

"Do you know what Tower Laws says the Amylin must do if she finds the Dragon Reborn ?''

''We are meant to cage you, keep you shielded, channelling only what we want, when we want and when the last battle comes you'll be the best weapon in our arsenal not our general.''

scenes : First Meeting/Six Months. Huh!

For those still not seeing why I used Eggy, Rand and Ny as examples it's because Siuan isn't only sweet caring etc…she's not putting on a mask when she stops smiling because Nynaeve's being disrectpectful or when she lift her finger and stops them in their tracks. She's alone with Mo and their kids. When she's being silly and cute and then intimidating and showing and/or exuding dominance, these are both instances of her being herself. She's not switching to the Amyrlin Seat Mode.

The Amyrlin Seat Mode is her being stiff, barely moving and standing straight chin up and no slouch. It's her not using her hands as much or not at all and not making fish metaphors or being as expressive. That's what she had to suppress and what would create the need to let go that you attribute to her having to rule and she gets it back in the hut which is why she hates being called Mother by Moiraine.

scenes : Cairhein arrival/Logain

P.S : There are other reasons why she even has to pretend even though she fitted the role but they would have to be proved by spoilers from new spring so I won't rely on them or add them.

As I feel that me pointing out how different she actually is when she has to act (or mask) for an audience or just official matters versus how she is when she's herself with no reason to pretend is enough.

Now, obviously, anyone can headcanon Siuan and Mo how they prefer it to be. I myself do not think that they fit into these boxes so I don't really think about them this way but as much as this is true for me, it still doesn't change the fact that Moiraine is still protrayed to be a bottom and sub and Siuan a top and dom which makes my actual point of view on this matter as much of an headcanon as it makes yours one too (if it is different obvi), and it is fine.

PS: if you like my thoughts (or just the way I think about things) and would like to get my opinion on something as a non-reader, feel free to ask, the feature's here just for that, also sorry for the delay to those who waited, might be nobody but we never know. I had some connections issues today and couldn't post before.

Here : "WoT about: Rand gets no hero moments"

WoT about: "Rand gets no hero moments"

WoT abouts are Nreader to BCloaks/BReader takes and answers to questions I might get or find on Twitter, Reddit or here. So essentially, I'm sharing what I believe to be an interesting discussion topic to have in the fandom while sharing my thoughts on the matter.

book reader: I have finished the S2 of The Wheel of Time! It is a great improvement, loved each episode. However in the last episode, I just went back to season 1 finale: Rafe's least favorite character must be Rand, there is no other explanation. We just needed one Rand hero moment, just one!

torashi: I hear you but Rand effortlessly taking the shield off Egwene and Perrin, protecting everyone by himself, killing Ishy after having killed Turak and therefore having freed Falme of the Seanchan by himself is not him having a hero moment ?

The whole episode was about Rand and about him being heroic. Light! Actually, the whole season was about heroism for him. From S1E08, that's what it has been about:

Secretly leave alone with Moiraine after learning that he's the dragon to save his friends.

After "killing" Ishamael he leaves and makes Moiraine fake his death so that he can get away from them and never have to risk killing them because of the madness that he realised he already feels.

Learns that Egwene is kept captive by the Seanchean and leave everything behind even if it means willingly getting himself in a trap which he believes will get him killed by the Forsaken. ( this one i'll give it to you, Egwene stole his heroic moment by freeing herself)

Kill the equivalent of king and general of the Seanchean and his guard with no innocent victims.

Freed Falme of the Seanchean by doing so without causing collateral damages.

Fight alone against the strongest Forsaken, get hurt but get helped by his friends, Moiraine and Elayne.

Just healed from a life threatening wound and freed from his shield, he goes straight back into fighting to protect them and effortlessly take the shield off Egwene AND Perrin to protect them all.

Kills Ishamael alone with his sword while still holding the shield up and protecting them and effortlessly too, because Ishy had given up on getting him to turn to the Dark in this turn of the wheel but still kill or (seemingly) kills the strongest Forsaken when he barely knows how to channel yet.

book reader: He has his moments, no doubt. Yet I find them a tad anticlimactic. It's like he's playing a side character. Egwene shines with her incredible move, and then another one. #BookSpoiler Meanwhile, Rand, was stripped off the epic sky battle and his sacrifice with.

torashi: They are. I won't deny that, as I've always felt like this complaint was more "he doesn't get epic, flashy moments like the rest of them does" and to that, I completely agree but also understand why his moments feels like that in comparison. They all got sucked into this and would have been whether they liked it or not. They all surrendered to the wheel's wills but, Rand's case is different from theirs as he's the strongest channeller alive since his birth, he just needed to discover his power, and be discovered. Ishamael himself does not equals him, only the dark one does (if I got this right). The only reason he'd struggle in one of his fights and put on a show compared to the rest of EF5 is if he :

Fights the Dark One

Fights against a serious forsaken who actually intends on killing him (which are all still weaker than him but would all most likely win a fight in his current state because One Power fights seems to be much more about who shields first, who is more experienced and knowledgeable than fights that can just be won by force alone.)

Is fighting against himself because of the madness.

Won't , couldn't, or can't channel and had to use a weapon.

torashi: Compared to the rest of EF5, if he was shown struggling against Ishy who's the same enemy Eggy and Perrin were previously struggling with just to hold a shield up in a 2vs1 even when he did not really try because he was stronger than the both of them it wouldn't make any sense that Rand did too even when Ishy is purposefully not using is knowledge against them while also not being stronger than the Dragon Reborn. His moments feels anticlimactic because is character is set up to live these moments has something annoying, even boring but not really difficult or fulfilling. This isn't an achievement but an inconvenience he has to get rid off to be able to do what he really wants which is live as a farmer and have kids, for him, the achievement would have been saving Egwene not doing something he does reluctantly and because he's given no other choice.

All of EF5, but Egwene felt (or still feels) like this about all of the things they're asked/have to do. Egwene is the only one who actually seeks greatness and more than a simple life, first by becoming a Wisdom, then Aes Sedai. She's the only one actually trying hard and giving her best any chance she gets and not thinking about going home any time the opportunity presents itself since season 1, and she ends up being the one taken by the Seanchean too, made into a Damane which in turns makes her both the most experienced channeller and knowledgeable one of the 3. She's at her full strenght right now, whereas Ny can't channel because of her block, and Rand and Ny are the only other channelers of the group, someone had to stand up between Rand and Ishy and it couldn't have been Mat and even if Nynaeve was there they wouldn't have done it together because they were setting up how inconvenient the block had become even for herself and not just for the tower, since until S2E08 she could channel correctly when she needed to just not when the tower or others wanted her too.

In short, Rand does have his heroic moments, only at this point in the show it wouldn't make any sense to make them that big of a deal because they aren't compared to what's coming for him later and because so far he only had to deal with either weaker enemies or the kind of enemy that could easily kill him in his current state regardless of the power scale but who just did not want to. They have to show everything and can't rely on explanations, extensive descriptions etc… so the only way they can show the overwhelming gap that's is separating Rand from everyone else even his friends who are already established as one of the strongest out there is by making those moments feel insignificant in his story because ultimately they are compared to what they know is coming.

Here :

WoT about: "The writers keep giving time to plots that aren't *bad*, but do nothing to actually serve the story."

PS: As always, if you like my thoughts (or just the way I think about things) and would like to get my opinion on something as a non-reader, feel free to ask, the feature's here just for that.

That's precisely because he's this type of character that I still don't like his character in the show.

The books being told through his perspective and everything converging toward him 99.99% of the time is why I might never read them. It's such a turn-off for me. I'm giving myself until the last season to see if i ever change my mind about this.

And yeah, even without reading the books, knowing that he'd have 3 girls loving him, I just knew that the explanation would have "he's the dragon reborn", "he's the hero of the story" 😩

I've been telling bookreader and bookcloaks that his character just wouldn't have worked on screen as well as any other one as the main because of the type of character that he is and because of when this adaptation is happening since I first engaged with the fandom. Glad a show first book reader is confirming what I thought about him.

Rand's the least appealing and interesting character to me, even with Josha being incredible at playing him and him not being the main angle of focus anymore.

Add to that the fact that Robert was a naturally plot driven writer and not a character driven one, and that it's overly apparent which makes this problematic as it means that it's imbalanced, also the books are ridiculously descriptive, each the size of an encyclopedia (except New Spring) and there's 14 of them plus I have ADHD.

I probably will never join book readers except for the New Spring ones, but who knows. Someday, maybe.

Two books in, I can’t help feeling like people who are upset that Rand isn’t getting enough screen time in the show just have some sort of wish fulfillment with book!Rand. He’s a totally fine “chosen one” character, but in typical chosen one fashion he’s trope-y enough to be one of the less interesting characters in the books so far imo. But you know, every girl is in love with him for some unclear reason, people give him respect when he’s quiet and then even more when he gets bossy, being petulant makes people like him *more,* and nothing he has to do actually takes that much effort or challenge (and his mistakes don’t ever backfire). There’s a certain type of person, and especially a certain type of young boy, for whom I feel like that would REALLY resonate.

WoT about: "The writers keep giving time to plots that aren't bad, but do nothing to actually serve the story".

Disclaimer : As always, it's long.

Alll of these comments are from a discussion I had with a book reader in the comments of a post on S3E01 being written by S1E06 and S2E07 writer: Justine Juel Gillmer. Basically, the original poster was celebrating more Siuan (however it might be) and/or a possible Siuanraine reunion in S3.

Book Reader 1:

In a story about the potential end of all things, I can't honestly say that I care about Suianraine. Side romance plots are fine, but they're not what WoT is really about. I hope they give a little ship time to those who are craving it, but they really need to work on the Nerf Reborn. He's way weaker in the show than he is in the books. We need a Rocky montage to put the Dragon back on track.

Book reader 2 :

One of my biggest issues with this show. The writers keep giving time to plots that aren't *bad*, but do nothing to actually serve the story.

Moiraines family scenes? Well written and acted, but that's 30-40 minutes that we could have had in Falme, or building up the Horn, or generally building the legend of the dragon.

Book reader 1 :

Yep. The show wastes precious time on things which aren't central to the plot.

Torashi :

That mostly has to do with the fact that the show is not about Rand but about Moiraine and specifically about Moiraine's Quest which is something that most book readers seems to have overlooked and that's the most important and fundamental change from the books yet it's overlooked when it comes to understanding how and why everything plays out the way it does.

If we had to choose a character and declare them the main one for the show, it would be Moiraine. That's the main difference that explains most of the complaints bookcloaks and book readers may have with the show.

The books are about Rand. Here, it's about "Moiraine's Quest", and it gives the show more room to explore the characters deemed as side characters and one of the most interesting group of people in this universe in my opinion: Aes Sedai's and their warders.

Both are telling the same story but not from the same POV, and that changes a bunch of things and it includes what gets showed or not.

Book reader 1 :

I certainly didn't overlook that the show is focused on Mo. That is the biggest problem, as you say (pre post edit: I did not say that the the Mo focus was a problem, never had actually) . Book Mo isn't anywhere near a main character after TEOTW, so it's a very questionable decision to promote her to a main, outside of real world "politics". Pike is the most recognized actress **and** she's a producer.

While I get that non-readers don't mind it, I and millions of other readers waited 39 years for the books to be turned into a show.

We weren't waiting on Siuan and Moiraine.

Torashi:

I'm not saying that you're overlooking this but that those who did read the books tends to do so and fail to realise( pre post edit: or recognise really) that the things they're complaining about usually makes sense as Rand is not the main character anymore.

The pov's are mostly Moiraine's, and while it's different from the books, it doesn't mean that it's not good. The story is just told differently, and a lot of you guys fail to realise that while it's not what you hoped for, you at least get to experience the same story told another way and in the same world you grew up loving but on screen.

I understand that it's disappointing as it's probably not what you guys imagined and expected the show would be if you ever got to see it, but Rand, as the main character, probably wouldn't have worked as needed exactly because it's been so long since the books.

The classic hero trope is not as appealing as it used to be for TV, and switching the focus and putting it onto the Gandalfs of the WoT world probably was better so it ended up as the Moiraine's Quest show and not as the Randland show. It's also probably because it's usually better if most actors in a fantasy show are unknown so that their reputation and previous roles do not taint the ones they'll have in the show.

( pre post edit : in case some people don't get why I'm comparing them, it's to emphasise that all of these fantasy shows have 1 or 2 of their main cast and characters as the biggest stars so that they don't have to rely only on the existing fandom but can also count on their main celebrity to bring a wider audience (advertising aside) which allows for the rest of the cast to be lesser known or straight-up debuting and/or unknown actors)

For ex, Matt Smith and Paddy Considine probably are the most recognisable actors of HOTD (HBO) and they're brothers in the show and have a close relationship ( in case you didn't see it, Matt is Daemon and Paddy is King Viserys)

WoT (Prime) has Rosamund Pike and Sophie Okonedo as their biggest star, and they have a close relationship.

(Fun fact : Sophie wasn't even supposed to be in the show and probably wouldn't have accepted if she was offered the part but Rosamund specifically wanted her to play her love interest and Sophie had to be written to personally by Ros so that she would accept the role ( anyone who knows or follows Sophie's work knows that her playing Siuan was as probable as a WoT + GoT crossover episode) )

The Witcher( Netflix) they really just needed Henry Cavill as he actually is a mainstream celebrity and was at the prime of his career when he took the role.

Good Omens (Prime) : David Tennant and Micheal Sheen, they lead and are close. ( they really could have been fine with David here. Actually, he probably has one of the most dedicated fan base I've seen because of his performance as the doctor ) ( they also have benedict cumberbatch but I'm sticking to mains biggest star + they're closest relationships )

Carnival Row (Prime and original so a lil different): Cara delevigne and Orlando Bloom, biggest stars + close relationship.

Good Omens is focused on the gandalfs ( Crowley & Aziraphale) again btw and it's one of amazon most successful adaptations.

The Witcher is also focused on the Gandalfs of their world: Geralt & Yennefer (by extension)

WoT switched it to be the same : Moiraine & Siuan (by extension).

What i'm saying is that basically most of the complaints are related to missing things from the books, the cast diversity, things people wish they could have seen or wishing Josha's (pre post edit :Rand) or Daniel's (pre post edit : Lan) characters where depicted as in the books or it's blaming the show (pre post edit: or really mainly and mostly Rafe and sometimes the rest of the writers) for spending time on things that actually makes sense when you recenter yourself in what the show is actually doing which is telling the story from Moiraine's POVs.

Siuan is important so she gets time, Lan is important so he gets time (pre post edit : mainly referencing the Aes sedai + Warder focused episodes of S1, from Ep4/5 to Ep6).

Liandrin is a problem and has a grudge against Mo that leads her to be a threat not only because she's a red and black ajah but also because of an ulterior reason so she gets time and is developed, Moiraine is pushing everyone away even the only 2 people she could allow herself to be close to during her mission because of her depression and allow herself no other choice but to go to Cairhien alone which happens to be her hometown so we get a family reunion and see how much her quest for Rand impacted her and her family too and how unusual it is even for an Aes sedai( Alanna's scenes with her family).

The main problem isn't that the story is being told through Moiraine's POV but that they only get 8 episodes of approximately 1 hour each to tell a story that required 14 books to finish, they clearly need more or longer episodes per season to include more of what they initially intended to put in each season. ( pre post edit : in case you didn't know Lan was supposed to start training the boys from s1. you can check here )

For reference, GOT had 10 episodes for each season until S7 for 8 season out of 10 initially planned, each episode falling anywhere between 1h and 1h22 max, and it's only 5 books out on 7 planned.

There, we have 8 episodes falling anywhere between 54 minutes to 1h10 min max each, planned to have 8 seasons for 14 books.

(Pre post edit : so far, and yes i went to check the longest ep so far was 1h10 min and it's s2 finale in case you were wondering)

Original poster reaction :

OMG!!! I wish I could give you gold for this comment. I am getting tired of when I post something about the show, instead of people focusing on the show, they wanna bring the "but but but the books did this and that and it is nowhere to be found on the show", like I don't care, let's focus on what's happening in the show and can we only talk about that? You should make another main post pointing this out and that for the sake of productive conversations, this sub should stop complaining about what isn't on the show from the books and more on what we actually get, if it works or not let's stick to that!

Torashi :

I understand, but I totally get their reaction, too. It's been so long for them that it's probably hard to accept anything else than what they expected or wished they had.

(pre post edit :

While i do understand the frustration, i do not understand why you think it makes it fine to ruin (or tarnish) the experience of genuine show only fans by complaining and shitting on the show for missing things or not doing it the way you wanted it to be instead of going:

"That's cool i wish they had room for this or that, in the books there's this or that and whatever, you should check the books."

"The story is so much more richer even though the focus is not on the guide in the books. It could be interesting for you to see it from another PoV too"

You'd actually make show-only fans want to read the books. You guys have been tainted by so much display of lack of respect and gratitude towards those making and/or enjoying the show that I think that you're actually deterring show only fans from the books by dividing the fandom as much as S8 divided GOT fans and by making people afraid to read them before the show ends because of how ugly your reactions are and have been. (You guys are literally associated to Whitecloacks).)

Torashi:

What's infuriating me, though, is that most of the books things they wish they saw when that's what they're complaining about are things that had to be cut because they were details and did not impact the rest of the story as much and instead of complaining about the show having an insane amount of episodes, episode's length and planned seasons for 14 books each individually as big as an encyclopedia they blame Rafe who actually loved the books and is a fan too, that's literally why the books got approved to be on screen. Rafe he's a book fan that got lucky the same way Brandon Sanderson was a book fan that got lucky back then. He probably wish he could put more things in there too.

Instead of complaining about the real problem, they should be battling against, its straight up hate (from bookcloaks) and endless complaints about things that does not matter as its really just "yes but in the books" for choices that does makes sense when they stop being Rand centric while watching a show that isn't about the hero's journey but about the Quest itself.

(Pre post edit thoughts:

Robert made a mistake by calling his books: The Wheel of Time ,to then make most of the pov's and most of the story revolve around a single character. He should have called it "The dragon Reborn" or something along those lines, because most of book readers' new complaints I've seen so far, really are just about it not being ridiculously focused on Rand's story or like the books when they know that this is not a "Randland" show but specifically one that corrects this major flaw from the books by using the only character close enough, interesting enough and refreshing enough to tell this story trought a different lense that allows more freedom to explore other "z-list"/ side characters who actually plays a role in all of this, it's actually painfull to see so many book readers fail to realise that Moiraine really is just the best character to tell this story as she actually knows what's going on behind the scene whereas Rand is just clueless.)

E.g: Rand apparently being powerless (or rather not as powerful as they wished he would be already).

Even though he was alone and in hiding for the last 6 months and only ever channelled because he lacked control and only got to Logain once, because he stayed close but still ignored him for as long as he could. Until he left with Selene to then be found by Mo, he still kills Ishy, Turak and his guards, takes the shield off Egwene (pre post edit: who's struggling btw) and looks like he doesn't even break a sweat.

Yet, all some book readers allow themselves to see is him being "powerless" because he didn't get a flashy 1vs1 against the bad guy even though it wouldn't makes sense with his current development (that was impacted by what ? Cuts because of time/budget constraints ) and Egwene literally is the strongest and most experienced of them all right now because of the Sanchean (pre post edit : the bright side of being a damane lol ) and is one of the most developed character of s2 from EF5 because of what needs to happen with Siuan at some point in S3 and where her (really theirs) story might be going.

(more on this topic here)

This ends here, feel free to share your opinion on this.