Okay So I've Got This Weird Question (fun To Ponder Tho)

Okay so I've got this weird question (fun to ponder tho)

How do you think Rafal would react if Sophie slapped him?!

(Both the prequel Rafal and the TLEA Rafal.)

And perhaps the prequel Rhian too. Although I'm mainly curious about Rafal (since he has more of a connection with Sophie, I think.)

Ahaha! This is absolutely a fun one on this very fine day, Anon. Here goes—

Because prequel Rafal most likely wouldn't have a connection to, a care in the world about, or any feelings toward Sophie, she could just be another student to him. And if she slapped him, a blatant show of disrespect to her School Master, I think his first impulse would be to send her to the Doom Room, or to react explosively, retaliating with sorcery. Maybe, he'd slam her to the wall. We've seen that happen with the pirates and he has a short fuse.

If he stopped to think about why she'd slap him, if he were in a more tolerant state of mind, say, as Fala in his disguise, he might be able to reevaluate whatever he said to her to have earned that slap. (Probably, he would have said something about how she's worthless as an unconventional, Everish, and superficial Never, who only cares about appearances, who is a disgrace to her side because she wants to find True Love, and who'd never amount to anything, I'd imagine.)

And, maybe, just maybe, she'd actually break through the ice with the slap, or by following it with some critical yet truthful jab about him, thereby reaching his humanity and inspiring some self-reflection on his part.

Yet, I do not believe Sophie reaching him or succeeding in cuing him into recognizing his flaws would be the most likely outcome. I'm not sure what other fault-finding he'd do with her, and we know he just loves disproportionate retribution, which is why I'm most inclined to say: torture it is.

⸻

TLEA "Rafal" is the more uncertain answer.

He does have feelings for her and has exhibited sadistic and masochistic traits. (Remember the moment when they kissed after Sophie returned? He seemed to actually enjoy his bleeding lip for some reason.)

So, this may seem controversial, but he might redden and could potentially feel aroused and/or disoriented/dazed and be unable to react, frozen in place, considering that she opposed his authority, and that he hasn't been contradicted by anyone in about 200 years.

Besides, regardless of whichever of these would occur, I don't think he'd be able to keep a clear head in this particular instance.

If that aroused thought process happened, I think he would try not to lose his cool or get flustered, and would flee the scene abruptly, leaving Sophie to wonder how he took the slap (and unfortunately, worry for her life and what could possibly be in store for her, if he came back).

I'm not sure if her slapping him (probably due to his daily proposal ritual, him telling her to address him as "Master," or something equally controlling and irritating to her) would change their power dynamic. But that possibility does exist.

If their dynamic changed, maybe he would yield to her more often than he already did in canon, or could involve her in more major wartime decisions because slapping him definitely would've exhibited even more of her force of will and agency to him.

If their dynamic went in the opposite direction, he might become paranoid that she lifted a hand against him at all, and try to monitor her more than he already did, exercising his authority over her more oppressively.

Another fairly realistic option would be their having a verbal argument or a shouting match. But, it could be one-sided, if Rafal just decided to endure some kind of berating from her.

He might just allow her to get away with yelling at him while he either defends himself, calmly, maintaining his composure without yelling. Or, he could take everything in stride, or at least silently, and listen to her, seemingly unperturbed or perhaps, wincing the whole time at her sharp tongue? Internally, he could be very pained by all the horrible, hurtful things she's saying, that he would probably deserve. Another route is that he could, strategically, agree with her and yield to her, to regain her favor, but that could be too transparent of him.

Eventually, Sophie would run out of fuel for her vituperative fire and halt her tirade against him, and she might be a little remorseful or blush, but he'd let it slide because it's her. And he needs her.

He'd probably accept any apology, half-apology, blame-shifting, or non-apology from her, just to stay on her good side. And if he were able to swallow his pride, he could give his own speech as he's wont to do, appear to understand and even empathize with her societally-oppressed, downtrodden Evil soul and heart, and apologize himself, like any good Evil "activist" would.

(Personally, I like to interpret TLEA Rafal as The Ultimate Evil Activist™. So, er, take that however you want.)

I think he'd hold himself back from violence against her if it crossed his mind because he probably has the self-control to know that aggression would only worsen his chances with her, no matter what satisfaction it could bring him in the short term.

Alternatively, he could seize her and initiate a kiss against the wall in the same forceful way Sophie did to him once.

If not that, shock is another option I can go back to. He knew, to an extent, that she viewed him as "all-powerful" even though he wasn't. Maybe, he'd be impressed by how brazen she was to slap him at all. He'd never admit that to her, I think, but he'd probably glow inside about the fact that he's (why not credit himself?!) influenced her enough (ahem, provoked her enough) to become more violent, even if it backfired against him. Plus, he could harness that violence of hers during the upcoming war and redirect, train, refine it, towards a more productive cause. Their victory. Because, that violence is also an indicator that his plan for her to embrace Evil wholeheartedly is succeeding, even if his parallel plan to court her is simultaneously failing. (Picture mental fist-pumping, like: yes, yes, yes, basically.)

So, there's a chance he'd remain expressionless. However, he could display shock on his face if he weren't able to control his emotions, or he could grin like a pathetic, love-sloshed idiot, much to her disdain or ire at not being taken seriously.

Whether or not he'd recognize and agree that he was in the wrong due to whatever he'd done to earn himself the slap, he could also try to make it up to her, whether his apology is sincere or not. I'm sure that in either case, he'd resort to personally bringing her (or materializing from afar) more and more opulent gifts—because, what more does he know about her that he could use to his advantage? Not a lot, to be fair.

Maybe, the gifts would appease her while he temporarily stays out of her sight, so she doesn't get mad at him again?

The least likely scenario, in my opinion, would occur if he truly didn't know whether slapping were a thing that "normal young people" did while "dating," and he took the slap as a sign of things going regularly, if not badly.

To be fair, he's watched Ever courtships for years (and he surely must've observed Agatha punch Tedros in the eye over the Gargoyle debacle), but this is Evil's Love—something unheard of, something never before seen. Should it be held to new standards? If so, what standards? What should he expect? What should he set, if the standards are up to him to determine? Should he really hope to imitate the Evers' love on every front? He's had zero successful past relationships, so how could he know?

If this happened, I bet he'd obsess over the meaning of Sophie's slap.

He might have to process it and puzzle over what exactly went wrong for days before he returned to set things right with Sophie. And if he did that, he'd potentially inadvertently abandon her in the tower for those several days, leaving her to wonder if she's going to starve there as her punishment, or die from "the plague," assuming he forgot about everything else and his obsession took hold of him.

(And leaving her alone could be a strategy itself, whether intentional or not, so she would begin to crave his presence again.)

This would also mean, he'd have deal with far more external complications because the assumption that he'd desert Sophie for a short period, the way he did to Rhian for six months in the prequels, would mean he'd also desert his war-training responsibilities, leaving the Old and New students to fend for themselves, and perhaps, to devolve into anarchy—if he's not quick enough to return, provided that his Deans failed to maintain order and discipline during his absence. In fact, I could see Aric actively undermining Lady Lesso's efforts, and encouraging vicious hallway brawls and overall barbarity with Rafal gone.

Also, his love was never "enough" for his brother in the past—that could easily spiral into self-doubt, even if his ego would protect against it. Then again, he's likely more sensitive to rejection if it's from her specifically since he actually values her opinions of him. I feel like he'd just brood in the no-longer-Blue Forest, sit there and do nothing but cycle that thought around and around, because, his plan, his plan that he's had for 200 years, his last hope, is currently falling through all around him, all due to one slap, and what if that means all hope is lost!? All that work for nothing. A terrifying prospect. What then? He'll have nothing if he doesn't have Sophie by his side.

I think he'd know better than to think that so quickly though. Dramatizing things just entertains me.

⸻

Now for Rhian.

Rise Rhian could easily say something about the inferiority of Evil, and that could've insulted Sophie indirectly because I don't believe he would, while still Good, stoop to insulting her directly.

He'd probably just assign her a benign punishment, like dishwashing duties, or confine her to her dorm, given that she is a student and technically one of his wards, even if she's a Never because in this case, she acted against him, not the Evil School Master. So, perhaps, it wouldn't turn out like it did in book 1 with Lady Lesso. If he had no jurisdiction over the Nevers though, the punishment could be the Doom Room, if the decision fell to Rafal. And Rafal would not give a student preferential treatment if they slapped his brother!

Now, if Rhian were sympathetic enough to Sophie and her ongoing suffering in Rafal's School, he could cover the incident up and spare her. Let's face it: while Good, he seems like the lenient, bleeding-heart sort. Maybe, to him, it'd be the right thing to do because she seems kind of fragile and vulnerable. And she's Everish, which could appeal to him emotionally.

Then again, Rise Rhian has poor judgment, so maybe he'd stall and overthink deciding on any course of action, and wouldn't know what to do with her. He might not even feel like he could bring himself to discipline her, and might just continually obsess over it, as the indecision eats away at him. And, in the moment, maybe, he'd just flush red and tear up a little because she's been so cruel to him!

Fall Rhian, on the other hand, would probably insult her and do it so scathingly well. If she slapped him... she'd probably be a dead girl walking at that point. Could he incinerate her? Very possibly.

Midway through Fall, Rhian might just assign her a demanding punishment or task, really, of the same nature (and severity?) as Midas'.

⸻

And that is all I have for now. If there are any outcomes I haven't thought of, feel free to tell me what you think!

Rafal, i want to trap you into something and have someone play you. Trap you in a card maybe? People use you to gamble and they need to free you by magic.

Trap you in an RPG where my friends will play you and keep having you die against enemies? And then you respawn?

Fun right?

Rafal: [blithely] I'm certain I could free myself from your traps. Besides, I've died and "respawned" enough for one lifetime already. Though, I'll definitely keep those ideas in mind for my enemies. Like you. [He grins and his hand glows with sorcery as he says, mockingly,] Fun, right? We'll "play" whenever you're ready.

What Rafal's Physical and Immaterial Coolness Could Represent

❄️ ❄️ ❄️ ❄️ ❄️ ❄️ ❄️ ❄️ ❄️ ❄️ ❄️ ❄️ ❄️ ❄️ ❄️

As a forewarning, this post is more... observational and has less of a singular, hard-hitting point to it. (Also, see Conan Gray's "Fight or Flight" song for reference, as, most of this post occurred to me in relation to that very song, if you interpret parts of it as representing Rafal's internal monologue on the subject of Rhian's substitutes during Rise.)

Also, this is a long post, so it's going under a cut.

⸻

Why is Rafal's immediate response to personal hurt avoidance of all things? Isn't that kind of a heightened, overly instinctive, clearly "uncool" reaction to have?

And yet, strangely, we still classify it as in character for him. His leaving was, arguably, the most iconic and true-to-self thing he did across both prequels. So, I want to ask: why is that?

That he just up and left seems apathetic and could be construed as part of his cold, cool nature, of course, but still—when we look at what his reaction truly is: he chose flight.

(Flight as opposed to the alternative fight, freeze, or fawn responses.)

FLIGHT! Like, can you believe it? This man, who's so headstrong and willing to stare down anything, chose flight. Let that revelation sink in. (Maybe this is more obvious than I think, but I can't believe I hadn't thought of this weird discrepancy before. Flight!)

Anyway, to explain Rafal's reaction to (potentially) having been emotionally hurt by his argument and corresponding bet with Rhian at the start, I'm going to reference a theory from an old post, as it has suddenly become relevant once again.

In short, the idea is about how Rhian's expressions of authority are personal while Rafal's are nearly always impersonal. Rhian is a master of social dynamics, considering how deftly he lies in Fall to gain favor from others and influence their views of him. And, this makes sense because he once cared so much about how he was perceived, as we take into account his original self-consciousness and his high-minded, conscionable tendencies from Rise. He is the one who wields interpersonal power as Rafal, correspondingly, wields impersonal (often more tangible and brutish) power.

If anyone would like more elaboration, here's an excerpt from that old post:

The strange thing is, in Fall, Rafal admits to having conceded a lot of the time to Rhian in the past, in the face of smaller, pettier arguments, a trend which also represents his yielding to Rhian's (supposedly nonexistent) authority in the early days. That tendency seems self-contradictory of Rafal, but perhaps, even Rafal's authority is situational. He's capable of exercising it over everything and world, but not over his own brother. He can't rein Rhian, the inevitable force, the "fatal" (to invoke both death and "fate") tides of change, the Prime Mover, in. Meanwhile, Rhian is the inverse of that. Rhian cannot exercise authority over everything and the world, but he can do so over his own brother. Besides, Rafal, often by sorcery or by outright manhandling, manipulates and exerts his physicality over others and his environment while Rhian rarely does. And yet, Rafal (from what I remember) never so much as lays a hand on Rhian during Rise (in Fall, everything changes and escalates). I don't yet know why this is, but I think this observation is true most of the time. At least, I haven't thought of any exceptions yet. The working hypothesis I have is that Rhian (being the brother who chose to stay in the comfort and limited confines of the home, according to the Bettelheim text's ideas) only initially felt comfortable to do anything there. To act, and exercise his authority in an intimate, narrow, personal way. By contrast, Rafal (the more worldly, well-traveled, and inconstant brother) wants to gain independence from their stifling "home" life, under the Storian, and, as a result, upon his return, could've felt like a stranger in his own home and with Rhian (who's also changed in his brother's absence regardless). Thus, while Rafal can certainly exercise his authority impersonally, he doesn't feel at ease exercising authority over the familiar because it could be too close for comfort, too unsettling, unsettlingly different and the same, like he can't shed the disbelonging that drove him out of the fairy-tale construct of the "home" as a safe, childhood refuge in the first place—when Rhian first questioned his very core purpose and Evil's existence.

Thus, again, Rafal's ability to wield power is, without exception (I think), always impersonal.

The closest he comes to Rhian's brand of power, which involves acting on a smaller scale or more on an individual, one-to-one level and being intimate, are his interactions with Hook and Midas. And, despite those seductive instances, Rhian is still the master of all the smaller scale exploits, like with Hephaestus and the Pirate Captain rescuing him from the Doom Room where he'd been "abandoned," whenever these acts are in fact intentional.

Yes, Rafal possibly unwittingly, by being more open with his victims, has broader appeal, but that side of him isn't all pure strategy, done with intentionality. Part of it is just how he is. Rhian, unlike his brother, strikes at something inside people that doesn't just rely on scare tactics and classic, one-dimensional intimidation. In Fall, he gains a creepiness factor and the ability to lie convincingly, importantly, without blushing.

Also, I want to commentate a little on Rafal's novel instance of blushing during Fall, which was quite unlike his usual self.

First, here's some context about physical coolness, the socially-perceived "cool factor," and how blushing can only ever be sincere and is valuable because it is involuntary from Quiet by Susan Cain:

I suspect Fall aimed to establish Rafal as more "trustworthy," and as more subject to having humility thrust upon him, than he had been in Rise, when he had previously been insurmountable.

Yet then, after that "invulnerable," unaffected precedent he set about himself, he started blushing, signaling that he suddenly began to care, and that the opposite was true of Rhian as Rhian changed throughout Fall and became more immune to his old, constant feelings of shame that originally must've formed his moral compass.

Also, Rafal gets more points towards being an actual sociopath! He just partially lost his former, low-reactive temperament when he turned "Good."

One other thought of note:

Has anyone ever headcanoned Rafal as having an avoidant attachment style? To complement that, Rhian would probably have an anxious attachment style.

Essentially, the traits of these attachment styles are Rafal and Rhian personified.

Rafal:

Rhian:

In the modern publishing landscape, these days, I think like we do not have many (if any) point-of-view characters with low social motivation for whatever reason.

Sure, there are lots of characters with social anxiety or other perceived or legitimate foibles to overcome, there are many YA villain origin stories, and there are many unpalatable, traditionally "unlikable" men in classics, but disregarding those, who else do we have?

Can the state of openly being alone (and content) rarely be presented as morally-neutral or as the end result of a narrative? Must it always be that either being alone is the starting point, so there's room for "personal growth," or that being alone is seen as "undesirable" and/or an indication that the person alone has a "problem" or something otherwise wrong with them, like a deficit or moral failing that in some kind of karmic way gives them "what they deserve," which is being alone and discontent with it?

Characters with society anxiety, any differences in communication, or other reasons that interfere with forging connections "don't count" because they may still be motivated. Traits such as these only stand in the way of gaining relationships, as plot obstacles. They aren't intrinsically tied to indifference or to low motivation. So, these characters clearly are not experiencing a lack of interest. And they are not the ones rejecting others. Thus, they "don't count" as far as the archetype that I'm looking for goes.

Characters who undergo villain arcs or otherwise negative arcs may want to maintain their relationships or gain them, so some examples are immediately disqualified (hence not having low social motivation), even if they are the type of character most likely to alienate themselves by a story's end, conflicting with what they wanted.

(Unfortunately, Coriolanus Snow, who is quite close to the type of protagonist I'm searching for "doesn't count" because he has some drive to keep people in his life.

Rafal Mistral partially "counts," and is satisfying as a character, but also doesn't count because he temporarily makes "friends" or allies, depending on how you look at his exploits. Yet, despite all this, not having friends isn't exactly framed as a morally-neutral state either, so he is also disqualified by the end. Basically, he does have low social motivation, but his narrative lacks the conditions that would make the natural consequences of that low motivation play out for themselves. He is always surrounded by people, even if he hates every last one of them.

And, generally speaking, the usual, moody-broody, "misunderstood" YA love-interests very easily "don't count" because they have a desire to get closer to their object of affection.

Even Katniss Everdeen, an overall good person, who usually views herself as "unlikable," befriends others, originally for pragmatic, survival purposes. However, she does start with low social motivation, so that's something in her favor.

And yes, I'm aware that we need other people in this world—I would just like to see someone prove that supposed truth wrong once. And perhaps succeed in their world, if that's not too much to ask for.)

Also, are there any instances of characters who progressively alienate themselves from others, in which that progression is not inherently seen as negative? Like, what about non-corrupt misanthropes? Are there few of those in literature? (Maybe—Eleanor Oliphant from literary fiction counts, but something about that book did not appeal me and I didn't finish it.)

Classics guys sort of "count," but I haven't really seen examples of any comparable protagonists today since many authors and readers write and look for "relatability" in blank slate everyman figures oftentimes.

(I'm not done with Crime and Punishment yet, but Raskolnikov is very tentatively looking like a safe bet for a character who may end up alone and who may not be completely malcontent over such a fate, even if I'm expecting tragedy. I'm that not far along, but I also wouldn't mind it too greatly if he died, I suppose.

And even Sherlock Holmes has Watson as his constant, even if he's notoriously asocial! So he "doesn't count" either.

Carol from Main Street also comes close, but still ultimately desires approval from others.

Maybe no one is truly immune to humanity and I should give up on this notion?)

How many pov characters out there are 1) apathetic toward the masses and 2a) either alienate themselves as the plot progresses or 2b) do not make any friends? (I will allow them making friends and consequently losing them though because that still ends in net zero!)

Indeed, this "gap" in protagonists I've been running into lately, especially with coming-of-age arcs and protagonists whose arc is some form of "getting out of their shell," is: why do we (almost?) never see protagonists who just flat-out don't progress in terms of connecting with fellow humans?

Wouldn't having even a handful of those types be reflective of reality? (We as a society are more disconnected than ever, to be fair, despite constantly having access to one another via technology.)

Or I would completely understand it, if it were narratively impractical to have a plot in which a protagonist makes zero friends. Maybe, it's a near-unwritable form for a story?

So, my question is: does anyone have book recommendations, which present a character whose end goal is not to make friends or forge connections (any other ambitions or motivations are fine) and whose state of being friendless both lasts and is regarded as morally-neutral or as not outright evil? Any genre is fine. High fantasy is preferable. I am stumped.

(I also wouldn't mind recommendations of books in which the protagonist is vilified due to being alone, even if that is not my primary query here.)

Why do you think Rhian was so clingy to Rafal?.

What's your opinion on Rhian seeing Rafal as this flawless person?.

And what do you think upsets him so badly?.

Me personally there's not enough information for me to think Rhian was born evil, or Rafal truly 'pure' good.

I just don't see it.

Rhian's clinginess could be explained any unknown reason, really. I think the most "accurate" one is that Rafal fulfilled a parent/caretaker/savior role for his brother for so long that Rhian became more and more (overly) attached to and dependent on him over time. And with Rafal, in truth, that burgeoning reliance could've all been by design, meaning we can't wholly fault Rhian.

I don't believe Rhian sees Rafal as a flawless person, even if he may have looked up to him like he did Vulcan-like, villainous men, or considering how he ended up assuming Rafal's identity. While he does struggle with insecurity or feelings of inferiority in the face of Rafal's questionably "better" points of "superiority," Rhian also has exhibited arrogance due to having the moral high ground (in Rise) and has, at times, viewed himself as the superior brother as well. Rhian has also directly criticized Rafal at certain moments, so I think his somewhat recurrent comments, like whenever he thinks about the nature of Evil or corruption in Rise, would suggest the opposite of viewing Rafal as flawless. If anything, he's definitely aware Rafal is deeply flawed, but still remains alternately envious and disdainful regardless. It's more than likely that Rhian's (probably initial and later redeveloped in Fall) image of who Rafal is in his mind doesn't quite align with who Rafal is objectively.

I think Rhian was upset by a multitude of factors. Some include the perceived inferiority around Rafal, excessive competition on a larger scale in the environment he could never escape, and being repeatedly hurt by others and taken advantage of, to the point he decided to become his "abusers," some amalgamation of everyone who ever wronged him, to prove them wrong, that he wasn't willing to take anymore ill-treatment.

Yes, I view them as morally-grey. Their actions (and even "impure thoughts") disqualify them from truly being "pure."

Good versus Evil is a commonplace literary theme beyond the world of SGE, and could be likened to mirror-image symmetry, which is often seen in Soman’s juxtaposed images throughout the series. Yet, I was thinking: is there a literary equivalent for rotational symmetry and what would it look like? I think it would have to involve greater than two elements in play, each a few degrees removed from each other instead of a pair of direct opposites, but I don't have an example of this in practice.

In addition, one of the most prominent instances of juxtaposition in the series to me, by the way, is how the brothers treat their respective Deans, and how Rhian’s reaction is far more passive as he just lets Mayberry go:

And across the bay, there’s this laughable bit:

(I'm sure Rafal is not the only soul who finds it funny. Something about the timing and this being the last line to a section and the well-deserved comeuppance of the moment just read as funny.)