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Sansa Following Cersei Will Not Make Her Queen

I'm sure a lot of people have seen how stansas like posting about how Sansa will become queen because she learned from Cersei. Example below. I'm going to talk about why that doesn't make sense in both the show and the book.

Example:

First off, the obvious: Cersei is not a good ruler. In the show, she is a tyrant (except in season 8 where everyone is just fine with her for some reason). She blows up Baelor's Sept to get rid her political rival, she doesn't care about the smallfolk or even lesser nobles, and she gets rid of anyone who criticizes her. How exactly is she a good role model?

You could say: "Oh she's doing the opposite!" Is she? In the show, she almost gets Jon killed in the Battle of the Bastards (and looks very disappointed when she sees he's alive) and helps cause Rickon's death by hiding the truth about the Vale Knights. Jon and Rickon are her political rivals and she is directly involved with what happens to them by deliberately hiding information, which she had no good reason to hide btw. Her undermining of Jon continues is season 7, where, when Jon is gone trying to get allies to save the fucking world, she encourages the Northern lords to literally speak treason by saying they should've chosen her over Jon. She also for some reason doesn't take into account the fact that Jon is planning on bringing back a giant army when she's making food storage plans. Why not? Is she hoping Jon will fail? Either way this follows show!Cersei's shortsightedness.

We have further proof of her being like Cersei when Daenerys arrives at WF. D&D have literally confirmed part of the reason Sansa didn't like Dany was because she's pretty. Putting aside how sexist that is, that kind of pettiness is not something you want in a ruler. We see how it negatively affected Cersei's reign as she alienated and eventually killed her allies because of Margaery's beauty and conflicting goals. If Daenerys hadn't gone randomly insane, would Sansa have pulled a Cersei and tried to get Dany killed? Well we'll never know, but considering how quickly she betrayed Jon when it meant undermining Dany, I wouldn't put much past her.

In the same vein as the Dany jealousy, is the whole "Not one of us" mentality. Throughout the show Cersei constantly utilizes this view as support for why she doesn't trust anyone. This greatly sabotages her reign and makes her completely isolated thus furthering her mental spiral (both in the books and the show). Again, not a great thing to emulate, but show!Sansa fully embraces this rhetoric when she encounters Dany and her people (which is super xenophobic btw). If it weren't for Dany being in the North, Sansa and everyone else would be wights and the Night King would be winning. And yet, Sansa is outright hostile to Dany (where is Sansa's courtesy which is her armor?) running the risk that Dany will leave. And if what she believed about her being insane like Aerys was true, shouldn't she be worried about being fed to dragons (even though Dany wouldn't)? This is so very reminiscent of Cersei and Margaery and the ending is very much the same.

In the books, yes, Sansa has learned some valuable things from Cersei. However, she doesn't want to be like Cersei, and that's something I admire about her. Book!Sansa is not on path to be queen, and that's ok, in fact, with her role models being Cersei and fucking Littlefinger, that's a good thing.

TG stans and stansas rejoice in and ridicule women who get brutalized by their intimate partners, suffer traumatic miscarriages, lose almost all their children, and are murdered by a family member then turn around and cry about Helaena and Sansa's treatments in the fandom.

TG stans call Rhaenyra a fat whore, call her lazy for not riding a dragon into battle after a traumatic miscarriage (btw it takes 1-2 months to recover from a miscarriage), mock Visenya's death, and view the rest of Rhaenyra's children as subhuman. But when TB points out how Helaena and Aegon were both overweight in the book, talk about how Helaena went insane after B&C, and how she doesn't do much plot wise in either the book or show, they start bitching.

They complain about how people shouldn't target Helaena's weight, we should be sympathetic to her after her son is murdered, and she's really a victim so we should pity her not critique how little she does. Yeah, I agree, Helaena deserves sympathy for everything that happened to her, but so does Rhaenyra. But that doesn't matter to greenies, they just hate Rhaenyra so much that they'll act just as if not more awful than the misogynistic lords of Westeros.

Stansas will blame thirteen year old Dany for the crimes of her father, blame a bridal slave for the acts of her husband who bought her, call her a psychopath for not "properly" mourning her abusive brother who threatened to carve out her unborn baby, mock Rhaego's death, say she's a selfish person for freeing slaves, say she's a tyrant/horrible ruler for not perfectly dismantling a system built on millenia of slavery, mock her death, and theorize she'll turn into an mad tyrant based on nothing.

But if anyone criticized Sansa's portrayal on GoT, say she was being willfully ignorant in AGOT, talk about how she's persisting in her fantasies, critique how she acted in seasons 7/8, or theorize literally any ending for her character other than being qitn, they're sexist and hate all "feminine" women. They come up with the most horrible theories and write such hateful metas about Dany but then turn around and act like they and Sansa are the ones being victimized.

The shear hypocrisy of TG and Sansa stans is astounding, it's no wonder those parts of the fandom overlap so much. As long as they have their victims that they can project onto (Alicent/Helaena and Sansa), they're happy. But if anyone dares to criticize the characters or point out actual facts from the story, they turn around and bitch about how much we "hate their poor babies". It's just so frustrating seeing how much they hate and hate Rhaenyra and Daenerys yet reject anything that doesn't align with their ideas.

We can learn a lot about D&D from these two quotes. The fact that one is demonized and protrayed as a narcissist (falsely) while the other is adored and praised.

Daenerys, who D&D decided to portray as cruel and descending into insanity from season 5 on, is written as acknowledging her suffering. However, she says that she endured by finding strength in herself. This view of her past shows how she understands that, while without her circumstances she wouldn't be where she is today, she knows it was unnecessary and awful. Her motivation for most of the show is ensuring that what happened to her doesn't happen to anyone else.

Sansa, on the other hand, outright thanks her abusers. It's one thing to acknowledge how one's trauma shaped you, but it's another thing entirely to thank those who harmed you. By thanking Littlefinger, Ramsay, and others, Sansa is basically saying that her past self needed to suffer in order to become useful. It's D&D basically saying that femininity and women in general need to suffer in order to become "strong".

By choosing to contrast how Dany and Sansa view their pasts and deciding to make Sansa the one the audience is meant to root for, D&D are condemning Dany's idea. They are saying that women shouldn't credit themselves for enduring trauma, rather they should be thankful to their abusers.

This is just one example for how Dany is punished for being active in her life and actively rebelling against her "place" as a woman. Sansa is passive and only acts out when helped by men until the very end of the show, when she has "earned" her active role. Even in her final ending, she asks a man, her brother, to be given the North. Dany takes the lead in her life as soon as she is able, and, even when she's Drogo's bridal slave, she learns how to gain some semblance of power over her life.

Dany is punished by the GoT narrative for being a proactive woman and choosing to condemn rather than thank her abusers. Sansa is rewarded for her passivity and thankfulness to her abusers. This an just one example of the underlying sexism in the show.

Stansas who are TG will never make sense to me. I've already made a post about this, but it's so baffling I'm going to make a longer one. Please keep in mind, I don't believe in the whole QitN thing, for Sansa at least, and definitely don't believe any other things stansas spew out.

Stansas argue that Winterfell and the North are rightfully Sansa's. After all, she is the oldest legitimate child of Ned Stark (their arguments not mine lol). It doesn't matter that she's married to a Lannister or hasn't spent any time training in ruling.

Now, who else is the eldest legitimate child of a ruler? Rhaenyra. She also has an even more solid claim than Sansa. She's been named by the previous ruler, she's been trained to rule, and has no bastard older siblings who could have been legitimized over her.

Rhaenyra's reign would have set a precedent for female inheritance, something Sansa could benefit from (theoretically). TG fought for male primogeniture, meaning that in the situation of the Starks, Bran is the rightful heir in their eyes.

So no, if TG had their way, Sansa would never inherit anything. Aemond would never consider marrying her, neither would Aegon or Daeron, any of Alicent's elitist brood (because there's lots of people who ship them for some godforsaken reason). She raised her sons to believe they were superior to others, so they would have no interest in a woman who has little political value.

Finally, I doubt Sansa herself would be very interested in the green party. First off, her house allied with Rhaenyra and her sons, and remained their most stalwart supporters, even more than the Velaryons. Second, Alicent would probably remind her of Cersei, but worse, since at least Cersei is at least a bit politically savvy. And finally, show Sansa wouldn't like either team, since she's solidly against the Targaryens (for no good reason might I say), she'd want them all to kill each other, just like she was hoping Daenerys and Jon would.

In conclusion, stansas who support TG are stupid. Those who do just show that their reasons for their stances are rooted in misogyny and hypocrisy.

Game of Thrones | 8.03 “The Long Night”

This is why people don’t take your cry of “Misogyny!” seriously bc you cant even step away long enough to realize that if you really care about the message this story has to make about feminism, you would care about Sansa Stark as well.

Oh please, so for my hatred of misogyny to mean something I must bow to Sansa Stark lmao???? Nah. She was scheming against Dany before she even met her, the moment Petyr laid the seeds of chaos, Sansa made sure she saw the harvest – Sansa told Daenerys to her face that “women manipulate men blah blah blah“ – so fuck off with your fake feminism.

GRRM: *Makes Sansa’s connection to the North whack as hell. Has her favor the seven. Kills Lady off in the first half of book fucking one. Hasn’t had her warge once. Has her look exactly like her Tully mother. Marries her off to a Lannister. Has her learning southern politics with LF. Has her disherited by Robb Stark as heir to WF. Has her being regarded as a bird way more often than a wolf/dire wolf.*

D&D and Sansa-Stans: Sansa is the TRUEST Stark. The MVP. The Stark of all Starks. The Old Gods’ vessel. She is ... a true Northerner. She is ... THE she-wolf of Winterfell. 😩👏🏼🤤👸🏻🐺

sansa - blabbing something about daenerys, her army and dragons bla bla what dragons eat anyway whatever

daenerys - sweetie, do you want us to leave? you think you can beat the dead army without us? one more word and we're out

sansa -

curtain.

sansa - blabbing something about daenerys, her army and dragons bla bla what dragons eat anyway whatever

daenerys - sweetie, do you want us to leave? you think you can beat the dead army without us? one more word and we're out

sansa -

curtain.

POL JON RIDDLES

HELP ME OUT GUYS

Riddle #1: IT'S GREED AND TYRANNY WHEN DANY WANTS TO TAKE BACK HER FAMILY'S DYNASTY but it's righteous and right and empowering when the Starks (Sansa) want to take back the North. THE TARGARYENS ARE THE REAL COLONIZERS NO DOUBLE STANDARDS HERE WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT.

Riddle #2: Dany's love is cheap compared to her greed for the Iron Throne!!!11

...So why does Jon need to sexually use, abuse, manipulate, and fake his love for the power crazed Dany ala Pol!Jon to steal her armies and dragons if her worthless love is so cheap then...? It's not like sex is going to help out Jon's lacking martial forces much or add sense to the non-sensical Pol!Jon. Or what, does that not fulfill the Jonsa teen scene dreams of sweet sweet betrayal for thy true love Sansa?

Riddle #3:

"It's preposterous to think Jon, who has always tried to do the right thing, would betray(or even kill) his aunt just for shits and giggles."

So what is Jon, Jonsas? An uber asshole who is Sansa's personal garbage disposal? And will callously abuse, use, and manipulate a rape victim? Or does he have a conscience? Because yeah, I think the the two are mutually exclusive here. How does a decent person with a conscience (who Jon is supposed to be) do this to... anyone? Why would Jon do this to Dany? What has Dany done to warrant this? Conquer? Robb Stark, Jon's brother and best friend. Stannis Baratheon, the claimant Jon supported in ADWD. The Young Dragon, Jon's idol. How dare Dany want to take back her family's dynasty! Just like the Starks!! All the Northern houses love the Starks and want them back! (Except the ones who don't) The Skagosi too!! (Except they keep rebelling when the Starks try to force them to submit...) But seriously, since when does Jon hate Targaryen conquests? Or... Targaryens? But I digress, let's look at Pol!Jon. In contrast, Pol!Jon hates the young conquerer Dany! How dare Dany conquest!! Pol!Jon doesn't idolize the Dorne-invading dragon-riding Young Dragon!! Eww!!! But here's the thing: nothing about Pol!Jon makes Jon the hero as this particular Jonsa likes to argue. Everything makes him the asshole -- from every angle. Jon can't be a hero performing 100% villainous, unnecessary, and stupid stupid actions all so he can dispose of one girl (Dany) so he can go ahead and marry another girl (Sansa) who looked down on him in childhood for wholly classist reasons. (No no, no misogyny here!) Everything Jon does in this scenario justifies Dany (or Dany's supporters) going to war against him -- and the North -- because it's treason. How can Jon realistically get away with that. How would GRRM let Jon realistically get away with that. For Jonsa?

It doesn't matter how much of an asshole you are dying for Dany to be, it won't make Pol!Jon any less of an asshole in his characterization or actions toward Dany.

And if Pol!Jon hates Dany so much that he's willing to abuse, use, and callously exploit a rape victim when her love for him is apparently so "cheap" (because apparently, these are your versions of them), it seems like he is doing extreme stuff for shits and giggles -- and to make the situation far far worse (handing Dany a reason to go to war against the North, intentions to start another civil war despite multiple wars going on and the North's lacking resources, making an enemy of a powerful queen and during a time of probable desperation...).

I'd call that psychotic. (On another note, I'm a Jon stan but... uh, there are times in ASOIAF when Jon does not do quite the right thing...)

I know Aegony has been theorized as endgame ship for a reason but imo those are the same people who have grossly mischaracterized something about Dany and Jon.

The irony.

They are the same ones who have denied Dark Dany and insist how her greed for the IT was actually just her doing her duty as the last Targ and that Sansa was the power hungry one actually.

Hilariously, this happened in the same show Jonsa never became close to canon (not matter what Jonsa conspiracy theories say), the same show in which Sansa kept risking the life of her "beloved" brother Jon and betrayed him multiple times (funny, Dany never did that...), and the same show of which GRRM has repeatedly said his ending would be different. Oops :) And Jonsas wonder why the fandom has a problem with them.

um.

Yes. Thank-you Sansa for:

1) Lying to Jon for unknown reasons all season long.

2) Pissing off every house on-screen on that Northern tour.

3) Shitting on one (of two) people who got the Starks some of the only help for their army during that god-forsaken Northern tour which was 62 more people than you got, Sansa.

4) Trying to first a) strong-arm and guilt-trip a recently killed, newly resurrected, and freshly traumatized Jon into risking his life in a battle for a castle he was repeatedly reminded by Sansa's mother and society at large he had no place in; b) trying to make him force the wildlings he saved into forming an army for that battle; c) and then, when Jon told Sansa no, invoking saving Rickon to push Jon into saying yes; and finally, d) telling Jon on the night before that battle, to give up Rickon for dead* (when Rickon was the only reason why Jon is fighting at all).

Jon (a bastard) and Sansa (a daughter/married to a Lannister and then to a Bolton) just standing by and letting Ned Stark's trueborn son and heir getting murdered by Ramsay Bolton. That'll look good. Really politically savvy there, Sansa.

5) Withholding an offer of an entire f*cking army from Jon and his forces who'd be risking their lives on the battle field against far greater forces than their own. They develop a strategy because their army is so small and believe this is their best viable move against their enemy. Sansa huffs and puffs angrily in the background over not being sent an engraved invitation for her exalted opinion ("Don't do what he wants you to do!!") despite never not needing said invitation before during previous war councils (6x05) or the Northern tour (6x07) where she led talks. OBVIOUS SEXISM HAPPENING HERE OBVIOUSLY. Jon asks Sansa, "When will we have more men?!" Sansa says nothing: not of the offer Littlefinger made of the Vale army, not that she had written to accept said offer, nada.

Thousands of wildlings and likely a big chunk of Mormonts die. Rickon lays smashed and dead on the ground. A bloodied and battered Jon is suffocating under a crush of bodies. A spotless and fresh Sansa and LF ride in together atop clean white horses as the Knights of the Vale crush the Bolton host.... you know, after loads of damage has already been done.

THANKS SANSA.

Personally, I think Jon should have thanked Sansa by revealing her season 6 activities that occurred behind his back to his new Northern vassals when he was crowned king, the contents of their pre-battle conversation (ie. Sansa urging Jon to let Rickon die) and then let the Northern lords yell it out before deciding the loudest voice chooses her.... uh, "reward".

why is it that alicent and sansa are given the interiority no one ever has for rhaenyra and dany. why are they the long-suffering chessmasters while rhaenyra and dany are the warmongering power hungry whores. as though rhaenyra and dany have not suffered at all and are not intelligent or have any political savvy. like bffr

From time to time, I come across these snippets of GoT on my social media. So on another episode of how D&D tried to push over Sansa as this "righteous and smartest" character, despite being power-hungry and wanting the crown only for herself: 

a) In this scene, people who don't or can't fight hide safely in the crypts. While talking with Tyrion, Sansa decides to bring up Daenerys into conversation for no reason at all, which is followed by trying to talk sh*t about her. Then Missandei corrects Sansa.

b) In this scene, Missandei states facts as usual.

c) In this scene, Daenerys is again proven to be a good and caring person who helps others. "We'd all be dead already": Missandei would have died in slavery if not for Daenerys taking her into her care and freeing her. Tyrion would have drunk himself to death/would have died in slavery/would have been killed in Essos if not for Daenerys taking him into her service. The North, without Daenerys, would have no chance to stand against the Others; they all would be dead (including Sansa).

d) In this scene, Sansa says, "Divided loyalties would have become a problem." What "divided" loyalties? Prior to the dialogue that is shown here, Tyrion and Sansa were talking about their marriage. It's understandable that Sansa would want Tyrion to stay loyal to her, i.e., that Tyrion would have no other lovers. But Daenerys wasn't Tyrion's lover, and it's quite clear that none of them had any romantic feelings for each other. From the political side, Tyrion has sworn his loyalty to Daenerys and is one of her advisors. Jon Snow, who's the King, is at the top of the political hierarchy in the North (above Sansa too), bent the knee to Daenerys. This makes Daenerys Queen of the North. And the North and its people become Daenerys' subjects; this includes Sansa too. In no way is Sansa above Daenerys in the political hierarchy. In no way is Sansa equal to Daenerys in the political hierarchy. Sansa is below Daenerys in the political hierarchy.

So what "divided" loyalties is Sansa speaking about as if she's in an equal position with Daenerys? That Tyrion being a loyal advisor to Daenerys and a loyal husband to Sansa wouldn't go well with Sansa's desire to have the crown and rule over an "independent" North?

i'm sorry but i can't take it seriously when people say book jon wouldn't kill dany to protect his family or after what she did in kl.. yes, he absolutely would, even more firmly if anything

"sansa didn’t trust daenerys bc she was a stranger" is such a bullshit. sansa didn’t know most of the people in the north personally "oh but they from the north" yeah boltons were too. "dhe was foreign, not really westerosi, raised and lived among barbarian people" oh good thing westerosi like littlefinger, lannisters etc were so well behaved and kind. sansa also didn’t have nothing really against wildings "oh but jon trusted them" so just like he trusted daenerys?

the only problem sansa had with daenerys was that she couldn't control her bc she was lower in the hierarchy and also it meant she looses any control over the north she had. that's it.

Sansa got a crown and you guys have been bitter ever since. Sansa's decisions didn't make sense? She's the only ruler who cared about food for her people. She was a better queen than Jon about the North's independence. They wanted her instead of Jon. Stay bitter.

Keep reading

do you think show!sansa's antagonism towards daenerys is because she saved jon beyond the wall & that really ruined sansa's plan to undermine jon's power until the northern lords eventually agreed to name her qitn similar to the way it was an accident that the knights of the vale saved jon despite sansa's best efforts to keep her mouth shut about it

do you think show!sansa's antagonism towards daenerys is because she saved jon beyond the wall & that really ruined sansa's plan to undermine jon's power until the northern lords eventually agreed to name her qitn similar to the way it was an accident that the knights of the vale saved jon despite sansa's best efforts to keep her mouth shut about it

You know what, I'm still upset about something.

Why does Sansa have that attitude towards Daenerys when she asks her "what do dragons EAT anyways?"

I mean, what the hell is her problem? What does she expect Daenerys to say, grass? air?

Last time I checked, it was them who went to Daenerys for help because they needed her dragons. So, what's with this bitter superiority attitude of Sansa? Seriously, I find her incredibly unpleasant.

Do you want her dragons or not?

It's so stupid..

The evil, power hungry Queen- agrees to set aside her political aims and give all her strength and focus to defeating the White Walkers while being promised nothing in return.

The good, selfless Queen- argues against getting the resources they desperately need to even stand a chance against the White Walkers because it threatens her political aims.