Anti Jonsa - Tumblr Posts

Why do I mock the jonsa?

This was a question I contemplated after receiving this ask while I writhed on my couch floating on a cloud of pink monthly uterine pain as I said a slow good bye to my high :( Mocking the takes of Jonsas (and Stansas) is fun, makes me laugh, is not a particularly time consuming hobby, is mobile-friendly, desktop-friendly, break-friendly, get-ready-with-me-friendly, but most importantly? It's absolutely 100% fucking cathartic. After years and years of fighting Jonsas (and Stansas) pushing their takes as not just a personal headcanon but actual canon and watching the unfamiliar/casual/newbie viewer or reader take these guys at their word? Or witnessing Jonsas trying to convince other fans out of canon takes in favour of Jonsa views -- particularly certain Jonsa views having nothing (initially) to do with Jonsa, ie. Pol!Jon, a take I find particularly horrendous due to its straight-up misogyny, nonsense, and transparency of intention? Something needed to lance my infected sloshing blistering boil of fandom frustration. Thus this journal :) Enjoy the ooze.

I tried to debate with these guys politely, reference book quotes/script direction/dialogue excerpts/interview snippets/etc. lay out my reasoning. In response, 29 times out of 30, I was insulted, berated, called names, accused of harassment for replying to their comments to me -- the works! So the first reason is ✨catharsis & venting ✨.

My second reason is ✨ sharing the bullshit I come across ✨ -- for the most part, Jonsa theories aren't very original. They're copied, the counter arguments are verbatim, and what you've seen from one Jonsa, you're 99.9% going to see argued from another. When you're debating a Jonsa, you're debating a set of pre-written arguments. So if you see a Jonsa in the wild yourself and they're closing in on a newbie about to take their first sip of the lemonsnow liquid ice kool-aid...? I mock to spread awareness <3 Some examples of Jonsas trying to convert people in the wild of Pol!Jon:

Yeah guys, Jon taking a page from Joffrey's book and sexually misleading, using, and abusing Dany before disposing of her after he steals from her what he wants is totally heroic from a certain side. It will completely come off that way in history. Yep. All because Dany wants to take back her family's dynasty like.... what, 98% percent of Westerosi nobles (including the Starks) want to....?

So, for me, it's not about "obsessively stalking and reading posts about characters you dislike" because I really like Jon. Really like Jon. Jon stan. What I don't like is whatever character Jonsas warp Jon into (Stark/Northern nationalist husband & personal bodyguard for Sansa Stark). I also like the characters Jonsas bash to prop Jonsa (Arya, Dany). As for Sansa, I don't go into her tag and I don't wish anything bad for her character (and I certainly don't hope she is sexually abused, used, mislead and disposed of). However, I do like to hold certain subfandoms accountable for the intellectual dishonesty of their arguments because what if somebody asks me for proof?

lmao

There's this Jonsa who has been posting prolifically on Reddit -- and ASOIAF/GoT Reddit's not having any of it. Think a topic a day for the past week or so with their downvoted comments arguing with Redditors over why they are in denial about Jonsa. Anyway, this exchange was gold:

Don’t care about the Snow series, just glad Kit and Sophie hate J/nsa to the point that it’ll never happen.

i'm sorry but i can't take it seriously when people say book jon wouldn't kill dany to protect his family or after what she did in kl.. yes, he absolutely would, even more firmly if anything

Shoutout to Jon and Sansa for barely thinking of each other in the entirety of asoiaf. ❤️

LOL the gurus are losing it in the tags.

i’ve made a mistake of going into the tags and saw jalsas claiming that dany wouldn’t like jon bc he isn’t attractive. please explain to me how canonically gorgeous rhaegar and canonically gorgeous lyanna produced an ‘unattractive’ jon, that’s not how genetics work.

I keep seeing this post by J0nsas, that when Sansa is in the Eyrie and laments that no one will ever marry her for love, the chapter that follows hers is a Jon chapter, as if that is supposed to be foreshadowing.

Well, how about this:

Daenerys I, A Dance with Dragons

Five Aegons had ruled the Seven Kingdoms of Westeros. There would have been a sixth, but the Usurper’s dogs had murdered her brother’s son when he was still a babe at the breast. If he had lived, I might have married him.

And wanna know whose chapter follows directly after this one? That’s right, Aegon Targaryen’s…I mean, Jon Snow. Ohh and what is memorable line from the first page of that Jon chapter?

“Snow,” the moon murmured.

Jon I, A Dance with Dragons

And who do we know who is called the moon? Hmm…I wonder…?

Hi, I’ve been reading your Dany and Jon asks and I am really curious why you think the political!jon/ucl theory goes against the themes of the books? Thanks!

“It was the cold,” Gared said with iron certainty. “I saw men freeze last winter, and the one before, when I was half a boy. Everyone talks about snows forty foot deep, and how the ice wind comes howling out of the north, but the real enemy is the cold.”

- Prologue, AGoT

The prologue’s there to frame the conflict of the entire series, and it’s outright stated that the cold is the enemy. (And at the end of the book, Dany proclaims that the fire is hers. Bookends.) The ultimate antagonist in this series is an inhuman, anti-human force against which all humanity should unite. 

The idea that people should work together to face threats greater than themselves recurs across the series. Whether it’s Ned telling Arya that she and Sansa will need each other, Catelyn imploring the Baratheon brothers to work together, or Jon and Stannis making common cause at the Wall itself, the idea’s there. The White Walkers are a problem bigger than anyone, and people should work together. The idea that at the business end of the series one of the protagonists will callously manipulate another protagonist into helping sort out the final showdown is just bizarre to me. Especially when the other option is one protagonist convincing another protagonist to lend a hand and a few dragons, nothing but good faith between them. Even the show has started to bear in this direction from time to time.

I think this theory is also pretty OOC for even the show versions of Jon and Dany. The show’s got its issues with showing us one thing and telling us another, but that theory pretty well denies that Dany could ever want to save the world because the world’s worth saving, and ignores Jon’s distress over deceiving Ygritte.

Given the options between “offscreen, Jon decided to give up on a good faith alliance with Daenerys and instead seduce her into offering her assistance,” and “the Jon/Dany romance writing did not come off altogether as convincing as intended,” I know which I find more plausible.

Except canonically there's no love between Jon & sansa,not even platonic because they distant siblings practically estranged with really nothing in common.And even in the context of the terrible adaptation that is GoT,Jon is basically forced to fill in the shoes of Ned & Robb as the head because he's the eldest member of the Starks alive after their deaths,hence why the show compares and parallels Jon to Ned,trying to make him into his clone only to fail miserably by making Jon worse.Yet in GoT,Jon's concern and care for sansa (despite dumb & dumber giving sansa Jeyne's trauma for "character development") is not returned and it's one-sided on sansa's side since sansa shows and proves time and time again she never truly loved Jon or cared about him or desired to protect him or even actually try to as she moving in a way that is the exact opposite with all of her other siblings too.Literally everything sansa has say and done in the show and the books has only really been selfish in service of serving her own interests with no regard for her so called family/dear loved ones.Sansa getting so many of the Northmen killed in the battle of the bastards,especially using Rickon to trick,manipulate,gaslight and guilt-trip Jon to fight in it (which is the begining of sansa's pattern of constantly risking his life and the rest of the Starklings until the very end of the finale of the show,even plotting to kill their own little sister Arya who even the actor of bran and the show writers favored towards the actress of sansa revealed and confirmed the suspicion) to only for her to be the reason their own innocent youngest brother Rickon to die without even showing any guilt, remorse,or mourning him at least just to get credit (like the actress confirmed) for "gEtTiNg BaCk ThE nOrTh WhIcH iS tHeIrS" when many if not most fighting in the battle of bastards against Ramsey Bolton died.Not to mention if sansa was truly "tHe SmArTeSt PeRsOn EvEr" (according to Arya being used as dumb & dumber's spokepiece) and really somehow magically knew about what would happen to King's Landing,then why would she consistently practically constantly provoke the major threat who was apparently volatile and a ticking time bomb?Why would she risk getting kill herself,her family,and everyone in the North killed with her unprovoked hostile behavior immediately upon their initial meeting when their only saving grace has finally arrived to Winterfell to save them from the imminent apocalyptic threat of the white walkers drawing closer to her so called people just because it's the "Mad King's daughter"?Why would she risk getting her precious beloved Winterfell that is their home and the rest of the North obliterated to ashes,acting as if their ally deserved to be judged for the sins of her father before what the d&d forced Dany to burn the people living in the city in the capital of Westeros and the castle her own ancestors built she was working towards her whole life to reclaim,hence destroying the Targaryen legacy?Why would oH sO sMaRtEsT oF aLl sansa & bran the all seeing three eyed raven mentored and trained by powerful Targaryen-Blackwood skinchanger Bloodraven not try anything to prevent the loss of innocent lives especially children in King's Landing if they didn't exactly know what would happened but actually anticipated it instead?It all just goes to show even more that sansa literally didn't care about anyone not even her family but ruling over an independent North struggling to survive that none of the Northerners were prepare to take care of not even the starks let alone the most sheltered pampered spoiled useless ungrateful incompetent dumbass of a brat of them from:

•sansa easily breaking an oath before the old gods of her late father's faith to conspire against the so called devil incarnate with her hand to replace the woman with a man,risking her so called beloved brother life and the rest of their family's lives and the Northerners' lives yet again for the umpteenth time

•sansa begging her little brother bran to give the North independence as a kingdom and begged him to became queen in the North even while bran is king of Westeros,proving sansa only cared about herself getting a crown,not who sat on the throne considering sansa believes ruling is a reward and right and leisure she's entitled to and deserves,not a duty and a job with great responsibility it actually (especially according to Dany's chapters and quotes in the books),(because of her ancestors' genocide of the indigenous native people of the North,the Children of the Forest,her ancestors forced their daughters to marry and mate with for their warging and skinchanging abilities practically to steal it while the First Men also warged war against many houses in the north,wiping out some to become the notorious kings of winter as they kicked out the Blackwoods out of their wolfwoods to take for themselves;("Owning" and ruling land you not only blatantly stole (because it was taken not given or surrendered or even won) but imposed your religion and culture via colonization (unlike the Targaryens who adapted the Westerosi faith of the Seven and assimilated into Westerosi culture instead and didn't enforce theirs on others) upon the rest for thousands of years is not the impressive flex stark stans believe it is using for imaginary drags (as if the Targaryens weren't naturally one of the dragonlord dragonrider noble families of Old Valyria despite being a lesser house who ultimately is the only house to survive because Aenys was likely the only one wise enough to listen to his Daenys the. Dreamer and at least prepare to move his family away because of her dream of the empire's doom if if they didn't know at the time it was a prophetic vision) due to her nonexistent suffering stolen from her childhood friend poor Jeyne🤮

But after all,GRRM did say he created sansa because the Starks all got along too well,which isn't realistic in familial relationships and dynamics,so sansa's is literally the bad egg of the family sowing discord among them.NTM sansa is partially to blame for Ned's death btw especially since her stans love to blame Dany,who's still a child only two years older than sansa,for everything and anything under the sun out of her control when Dany has actually shown/proven she actually cares about other people more than herself and at least,Dany actually tries to help people no matter what even at her own cost and risk since she's truly the most selfless,altruistic,benevolent,kind,noble,honorable,etc.Dany's borderline righteous in spite of her understable flaws (which arent even toxic but relatable and compelling) and her faults (which are literally as a result of Dany actually being way too nice and lenient and for giving),which no one could've anticipated coming miles away and prevented anyway.

I made a post about Jon Snow being a Corn King figure here. So, this post references that one heavily. 

The Corn King is a term for a male fertility god/sacred king who dies or is sacrificed for the good of his people to bring fertility or spring back into the land. The Corn King is born at Yule, matures through the year, and dies at harvest, only to be reborn the next year. At Beltane, the Corn King weds an Earth Goddess (an aspect of the Earth Mother). The consummation of their wedding restores fertility to the land.

The king was the incarnation of a dying and reviving god, a solar deity who underwent a mystic marriage to a goddess of the Earth. He died at the harvest and was reincarnated in the spring. Frazer claims that this legend of rebirth is central to almost all of the world’s mythologies. FROM WIKI

I just wanted to make a ship-specific post as we know that Jon and Dany have both been set up as our savior figures to stop the Long Night, restore balance, and bring Spring back again. And, their convergence has been stated has being the point of the series. Does Dany fit the figure of an Earth Goddess, an Earth Mother? The Mother part is easy as Dany is connected to motherhood from the first book and first season onwards. Mhysa means “mother.” She’s the Mother of Dragons.  

Frazer, in The Golden Bough, uses Diana, the Roman moon and nature goddess (who has also been called Light Bringer interestingly) and her symbolic marriage to the priest-king Nemi “the two figuring as King and Queen of the Wood in a solemn marriage which was intended to make the earth gay with the blossoms of spring and the fruits of autumn.” Egyptian kings married their sisters and they impersonated Osiris and Isis in the rites of spring. 

In Barbara L Talcroft’s The Death of the Corn King which is built on Frazer’s The Golden Bough, she says:

Irish texts speak of the banais rigi or “the wedding of the kingship” which probably meant that the queen, who also impersonated the earth goddess,  chose a mate from among her war band and later to become the king-sacrifice. Mac Cana relates the story from Irish literature of King Eochaidh whose kingship was not recognized because his goddess-wife, Edain, had been taken away from him. Mac Cana concludes, “In the context of Irish tradition, the meaning of this is clear. Eochaidh had become king, but his kingship could be validated only by his union with the goddess of sovereignty, in this case, Edain. This union of king and goddess was at one time ritually enacted at the Feast of Tara.”

So, this part is interesting because it’s the Goddess of Sovereignty that gives the king legitimacy. Without her, his kingship is not validated. 

The ceremony so essential to the legitimacy of the king took place at his inauguration and had two parts- some form of drink offered by the goddess-bride to the king and the sexual union

Have I just talked myself into accepting Bran’s legitimacy VO while Jon/Dany are having sex? Heh.

The intricate relationship between king and Goddess, at least in the Celtic tradition, was undoubtedly caused by the conflicting emphases of the patriarchal sun religion represented by the king, and of the matriarchal earth and moon religion represented by the Goddess.

Moon symbology has figured in Daenerys’ story. ‘Moon of my life’ which Drogo called her is only one such example. The dragon creation myth is another. There are a lot of moon references in Dany’s chapters. But, there are even more moon references in Jon’s chapters. The Azor Ahai myth and R’hollorism is filled with sun, moon, and star references too. R’hllor specifically is connected to sun and stars.

“He told me the moon was an egg, Khaleesi, the Lysene girl said. Once there were two moons in the sky, but one wandered too close to the sun and cracked from the heat. A thousand thousand dragons poured forth, and drank the fire of the sun. That is why dragons breathe flame. One day the other moon will kiss the sun too, and then it will crack and the dragons will return.”

Melisandre says to Jon in ADWD  "You should look behind you, Lord Snow. The moon has kissed you and etched your shadow upon the ice twenty feet tall.“

R’hllor,” sang Melisandre, her arms upraised against the falling snow, “you are the light in our eyes, the fire in our hearts, the heat in our loins. Yours is the sun that warms our days, yours the stars that guard us in the dark of night.”

I was researching the Corn King mythology and I found the references to the Earth/Moon (often used interchangeably) Goddess and the role she plays in the Corn King story. It’s not just his death and rebirth that brings fertility to the land, but it’s the consummation of their marriage. I’m not taking this literally for Jon and Dany, but rather, that their partnership will be what helps saves the world and brings Spring again. 

sansa is the whitest white to ever white;ghost & bryden rivers are albino yet she's even more white than them but nonas have the fucking audacity to project the embodiment & epitome of whiteness;white victimhood & white feminism on Dany of all people whose narrative is poc-coded;whose skin tans so easily dark like some of her ancestors that she can blend in with the dothraki & look like them after assimilating to their culture;whose family members/race grrm regretted not making black; whose lifestyle is exotic & foreign (very essosi) in nature compared to westeros' (european/white) standards;NTM Dany can not sympathized but actually empathize w/ many of the common hardships & issues immigrants & refuges;mainly poc face:displacement;poverty;famine/hunger/forced starvation;homelessness;consistently being othered;being fetishized;racism;xenophobia;discrimination even in the context of the poorly adapted shitshow that is got + Dany can actually handle spicy food & loves it w/ high tolerance unlike being the whitest white to ever white in every damn way 100% ignorant sheltered narrow-minded uncultured spoiled brat privileged naive gullible classist bigot aloof two-faced fake narcissist sansa still only really truly caring about herself who wants & needs for nothing even as a "bAsTaRd";learned nothing really valuable or useful or morally upright;still easy to manipulate & offend;can't even tolerate spicy food;looks down on not only bastards & unconventionally;unattractive people but also the summer islanders (who are poc) still practices grandiosity;displays delusions of grandeur w/ her superiority complex w/ her pov chapters the only character who grrm explicitly mentioned is an unreliable narrator; but nonas keep coping ig🙃🤷🏾‍♀️🤡😭☠️🤣💀

Funny how there are people who see Daenerys as a woc when she's isn't but when people point out that the Martells and people from Dorne are canon poc, that's going too far. Ok cool. So where's the evidence where it's implied that Daenerys is a woc because all I see is alot of stuff connected to the white savior trope instead.

Can you guys believe that book!Dany makes Irri, her former slave, pleasure her a second time, after acknowledging that she doesn’t understand the concept of free will and only sees it as her duty following the first time, and the takeaway for many people is “we stan a bisexual queen” ? Yikes. You stan a rapist is what you do.

If George was going to make Daenerys evil in the books or cause her to die after intensely suffering and losing everything what would be the point of making her the child of three (third Daenerys) or setting the precedent of suffering, abused and murdered TARGARYEN WOMEN? What would be the point of showing her grow up exiled, starving and homeless on the run with no one but a rotating cabal of odd adults who want to use her and a brother who treats her like an object? What would be the point of showing her develop real, genuine diplomatic skills and make hard choices for the good of her people when it would be easier to just have her use the dragons? What would be the point of Dany being the ONLY Targaryen, and having her never once benefit from her surname or ancestry? What would be the point of having her suffer and starve in the trenches with her people? What would be the point of “no one ever looked for a girl”? More importantly why do you want a teenage bridal slave to be “put in her place”? Why do you want an orphan who grew up in poverty to suffer and fall so someone who grew up in a fucking castle could take everything from her?

This is exactly how some of you Dany antis (cough cough Sansa/Jonsa stans) sound. If you hate a character so much that you would side against literal slavers just to go against them, then I would do some serious reevaluating of your life. It’s 2021, it’s getting a little pathetic don’t you think? All this for that lipless red head? Come on now

I haven’t read the books but I always see those 2 quotes “ghost wolf big as mountains” and “in the distance a wolf howled, it made her feel sad and lonely but no less hungry.” Why do Sansa and Dany both hear Jon die? Why not just Dany or just Sansa? Why both? Why either of them at all? How come Arya and Bran don’t hear it? Especially bc Sansa has no connection with animals or warging.

Oh no, no, anon. The howl Sansa hears happens an entire book before Jon’s death. In other words…

Sansa did not hear Ghost howl.

How am I so certain? Ghost doesn’t howl.:

Benjen: A very quiet wolf.Jon: He’s not like the others. He never makes a sound. That’s why I named him Ghost. That, and because he’s white. The others are all dark, grey or black.

Ghost sat on his haunches watching, silent as ever. Will he howl for me when I’m dead, as Bran’s wolf howled when he fell?

He found Ghost atop the hill, as he thought he might. The white wolf never howled.

Ghost doesn’t howl. He’s silent. Sansa heard the howl in A Feast for Crows, which is one full book before Jon dies in A Dance with Dragons. And that is important. Because Ghost does not howl on his own, it is implied that he howled for Jon upon his death, probably because Jon warged into him with his last moments on earth:

Jon fell to his knees. He found the dagger’s hilt and wrenched it free. In the cold night air the wound was smoking. “Ghost,” he whispered.

Yet… Daenerys did hear Ghost howl.

I know, I know, Ghost doesn’t howl. Not on his own, anyway… What Daenerys heard was likely a plea from a dying skinchanger. And oh, is this a fun tale! One of my favorites.

First of all, the timing matches up. Twenty-five pages after Jon is killed, Daenerys hears a wolf howl that made her feel sad and lonely.

At the time, Daenerys is in the Dothraki Sea, a world away from Jon. There aren’t really wolves native to the area, so we can rule those out.

Out in the plains, Daenerys is having trouble finding food. What she does find are some strange green berries that end up giving her some trippy visions and a very graphic depiction of a loose bowel movement (poor Dany).

These two symptoms paired together sound a lot like a drug here on earth, Ayahuasca:

“The psychedelic effects of ayahuasca include visual and auditory stimulation, the mixing of sensory modalities, and psychological introspection that may lead to great elation, fear, or illumination. Its purgative properties are important (known as la purga or “the purge”). The intense vomiting and occasional diarrhea it induces…“

The psychoactive ingredient in Ayahuasca is dimethyltryptamine (DMT):

“Rick Strassman has theorised that the human pineal gland is capable of producing the hallucinogen N,N-dimethyltryptamine (DMT) under certain circumstances. In 2013 he and other researchers first reported DMT in the pineal gland microdialysate of rodents.”

…The pineal gland.

“The pineal gland represents a kind of atrophied photoreceptor.In the epithalamus of some species of amphibians and reptiles, it is linked to a light-sensing organ, known as the parietal eye, which is also called the pineal eye or third eye.”

Through the use of these berries (which seem to have a lot in common with Ayahuasca), Daenerys might’ve ’opened her third eye’.

Bran Stark gives us an important clue about third eyes:

“Here in the chill damp darkness of the tomb his third eye had finally opened. He could reach Summer whenever he wanted, and once he had even touched Ghost and talked to Jon.”

What makes this so intriguing is that, like Bran, Daenerys is also a skinchanger. It’s subtle, but the proof is there in the first book:

“The slightest pressure with her legs, the lightest touch on the reins, and the filly responded. She sent it into a gallop, and now the Dothraki were hooting and laughing and shouting at her as they jumped out of her way. A daring she had never known filled Daenerys then, and she gave the filly her head. The silver horse leapt the flames as if she had wings.”

From the Wiki:

“An untrained skinchanger may unconsciously enter the mind of an animal.”

and

“The interaction between the skinchanger’s and animal’s minds influence both personalities.”

Dany suddenly found a ‘daring she had never known’, likely from bonding with her horse.

Lastly… (and this is my favorite part)

This is a controversial theory, but the berries she ate might’ve caused a miscarriage:

“As she splashed her face, she saw fresh blood on her thighs. The ragged hem of her undertunic was stained with it. The sight of so much red frightened her. Moon blood, it’s only my moon blood, but she did not remember ever having such a heavy flow.”

And remember…

“Only death can pay for life.”

In summary: Jon dies. He wargs into Ghost. He howls as a plea for help. Daenerys hears his howl. And with her miscarriage, might’ve provided the death that will pay for Jon’s life.

If, like me, you’d like to believe that Dany and Ghost share a connection, then perhaps Jon and Drogon do, too (after all, the name Drogon in Tolkien languages translates to ‘male wolf’).

These two dark-colored dragons (Drogon and Jon) were both just stabbed. A distraught Drogon conveniently takes Daenerys right to the berries that might’ve opened up a psychic connection between Jon and Daenerys…

Anyway. This theory is way too fun so it probably can’t be true. *sighs*

I haven’t read the books but I always see those 2 quotes “ghost wolf big as mountains” and “in the distance a wolf howled, it made her feel sad and lonely but no less hungry.” Why do Sansa and Dany both hear Jon die? Why not just Dany or just Sansa? Why both? Why either of them at all? How come Arya and Bran don’t hear it? Especially bc Sansa has no connection with animals or warging.

Oh no, no, anon. The howl Sansa hears happens an entire book before Jon’s death. In other words…

Sansa did not hear Ghost howl.

How am I so certain? Ghost doesn’t howl.:

Benjen: A very quiet wolf.Jon: He’s not like the others. He never makes a sound. That’s why I named him Ghost. That, and because he’s white. The others are all dark, grey or black.

Ghost sat on his haunches watching, silent as ever. Will he howl for me when I’m dead, as Bran’s wolf howled when he fell?

He found Ghost atop the hill, as he thought he might. The white wolf never howled.

Ghost doesn’t howl. He’s silent. Sansa heard the howl in A Feast for Crows, which is one full book before Jon dies in A Dance with Dragons. And that is important. Because Ghost does not howl on his own, it is implied that he howled for Jon upon his death, probably because Jon warged into him with his last moments on earth:

Jon fell to his knees. He found the dagger’s hilt and wrenched it free. In the cold night air the wound was smoking. “Ghost,” he whispered.

Yet… Daenerys did hear Ghost howl.

I know, I know, Ghost doesn’t howl. Not on his own, anyway… What Daenerys heard was likely a plea from a dying skinchanger. And oh, is this a fun tale! One of my favorites.

First of all, the timing matches up. Twenty-five pages after Jon is killed, Daenerys hears a wolf howl that made her feel sad and lonely.

At the time, Daenerys is in the Dothraki Sea, a world away from Jon. There aren’t really wolves native to the area, so we can rule those out.

Out in the plains, Daenerys is having trouble finding food. What she does find are some strange green berries that end up giving her some trippy visions and a very graphic depiction of a loose bowel movement (poor Dany).

These two symptoms paired together sound a lot like a drug here on earth, Ayahuasca:

“The psychedelic effects of ayahuasca include visual and auditory stimulation, the mixing of sensory modalities, and psychological introspection that may lead to great elation, fear, or illumination. Its purgative properties are important (known as la purga or “the purge”). The intense vomiting and occasional diarrhea it induces…“

The psychoactive ingredient in Ayahuasca is dimethyltryptamine (DMT):

“Rick Strassman has theorised that the human pineal gland is capable of producing the hallucinogen N,N-dimethyltryptamine (DMT) under certain circumstances. In 2013 he and other researchers first reported DMT in the pineal gland microdialysate of rodents.”

…The pineal gland.

“The pineal gland represents a kind of atrophied photoreceptor.In the epithalamus of some species of amphibians and reptiles, it is linked to a light-sensing organ, known as the parietal eye, which is also called the pineal eye or third eye.”

Through the use of these berries (which seem to have a lot in common with Ayahuasca), Daenerys might’ve ’opened her third eye’.

Bran Stark gives us an important clue about third eyes:

“Here in the chill damp darkness of the tomb his third eye had finally opened. He could reach Summer whenever he wanted, and once he had even touched Ghost and talked to Jon.”

What makes this so intriguing is that, like Bran, Daenerys is also a skinchanger. It’s subtle, but the proof is there in the first book:

“The slightest pressure with her legs, the lightest touch on the reins, and the filly responded. She sent it into a gallop, and now the Dothraki were hooting and laughing and shouting at her as they jumped out of her way. A daring she had never known filled Daenerys then, and she gave the filly her head. The silver horse leapt the flames as if she had wings.”

From the Wiki:

“An untrained skinchanger may unconsciously enter the mind of an animal.”

and

“The interaction between the skinchanger’s and animal’s minds influence both personalities.”

Dany suddenly found a ‘daring she had never known’, likely from bonding with her horse.

Lastly… (and this is my favorite part)

This is a controversial theory, but the berries she ate might’ve caused a miscarriage:

“As she splashed her face, she saw fresh blood on her thighs. The ragged hem of her undertunic was stained with it. The sight of so much red frightened her. Moon blood, it’s only my moon blood, but she did not remember ever having such a heavy flow.”

And remember…

“Only death can pay for life.”

In summary: Jon dies. He wargs into Ghost. He howls as a plea for help. Daenerys hears his howl. And with her miscarriage, might’ve provided the death that will pay for Jon’s life.

If, like me, you’d like to believe that Dany and Ghost share a connection, then perhaps Jon and Drogon do, too (after all, the name Drogon in Tolkien languages translates to ‘male wolf’).

These two dark-colored dragons (Drogon and Jon) were both just stabbed. A distraught Drogon conveniently takes Daenerys right to the berries that might’ve opened up a psychic connection between Jon and Daenerys…

Anyway. This theory is way too fun so it probably can’t be true. *sighs*

I haven’t read the books but I always see those 2 quotes “ghost wolf big as mountains” and “in the distance a wolf howled, it made her feel sad and lonely but no less hungry.” Why do Sansa and Dany both hear Jon die? Why not just Dany or just Sansa? Why both? Why either of them at all? How come Arya and Bran don’t hear it? Especially bc Sansa has no connection with animals or warging.

Oh no, no, anon. The howl Sansa hears happens an entire book before Jon’s death. In other words…

Sansa did not hear Ghost howl.

How am I so certain? Ghost doesn’t howl.:

Benjen: A very quiet wolf.Jon: He’s not like the others. He never makes a sound. That’s why I named him Ghost. That, and because he’s white. The others are all dark, grey or black.

Ghost sat on his haunches watching, silent as ever. Will he howl for me when I’m dead, as Bran’s wolf howled when he fell?

He found Ghost atop the hill, as he thought he might. The white wolf never howled.

Ghost doesn’t howl. He’s silent. Sansa heard the howl in A Feast for Crows, which is one full book before Jon dies in A Dance with Dragons. And that is important. Because Ghost does not howl on his own, it is implied that he howled for Jon upon his death, probably because Jon warged into him with his last moments on earth:

Jon fell to his knees. He found the dagger’s hilt and wrenched it free. In the cold night air the wound was smoking. “Ghost,” he whispered.

Yet… Daenerys did hear Ghost howl.

I know, I know, Ghost doesn’t howl. Not on his own, anyway… What Daenerys heard was likely a plea from a dying skinchanger. And oh, is this a fun tale! One of my favorites.

First of all, the timing matches up. Twenty-five pages after Jon is killed, Daenerys hears a wolf howl that made her feel sad and lonely.

At the time, Daenerys is in the Dothraki Sea, a world away from Jon. There aren’t really wolves native to the area, so we can rule those out.

Out in the plains, Daenerys is having trouble finding food. What she does find are some strange green berries that end up giving her some trippy visions and a very graphic depiction of a loose bowel movement (poor Dany).

These two symptoms paired together sound a lot like a drug here on earth, Ayahuasca:

“The psychedelic effects of ayahuasca include visual and auditory stimulation, the mixing of sensory modalities, and psychological introspection that may lead to great elation, fear, or illumination. Its purgative properties are important (known as la purga or “the purge”). The intense vomiting and occasional diarrhea it induces…“

The psychoactive ingredient in Ayahuasca is dimethyltryptamine (DMT):

“Rick Strassman has theorised that the human pineal gland is capable of producing the hallucinogen N,N-dimethyltryptamine (DMT) under certain circumstances. In 2013 he and other researchers first reported DMT in the pineal gland microdialysate of rodents.”

…The pineal gland.

“The pineal gland represents a kind of atrophied photoreceptor.In the epithalamus of some species of amphibians and reptiles, it is linked to a light-sensing organ, known as the parietal eye, which is also called the pineal eye or third eye.”

Through the use of these berries (which seem to have a lot in common with Ayahuasca), Daenerys might’ve ’opened her third eye’.

Bran Stark gives us an important clue about third eyes:

“Here in the chill damp darkness of the tomb his third eye had finally opened. He could reach Summer whenever he wanted, and once he had even touched Ghost and talked to Jon.”

What makes this so intriguing is that, like Bran, Daenerys is also a skinchanger. It’s subtle, but the proof is there in the first book:

“The slightest pressure with her legs, the lightest touch on the reins, and the filly responded. She sent it into a gallop, and now the Dothraki were hooting and laughing and shouting at her as they jumped out of her way. A daring she had never known filled Daenerys then, and she gave the filly her head. The silver horse leapt the flames as if she had wings.”

From the Wiki:

“An untrained skinchanger may unconsciously enter the mind of an animal.”

and

“The interaction between the skinchanger’s and animal’s minds influence both personalities.”

Dany suddenly found a ‘daring she had never known’, likely from bonding with her horse.

Lastly… (and this is my favorite part)

This is a controversial theory, but the berries she ate might’ve caused a miscarriage:

“As she splashed her face, she saw fresh blood on her thighs. The ragged hem of her undertunic was stained with it. The sight of so much red frightened her. Moon blood, it’s only my moon blood, but she did not remember ever having such a heavy flow.”

And remember…

“Only death can pay for life.”

In summary: Jon dies. He wargs into Ghost. He howls as a plea for help. Daenerys hears his howl. And with her miscarriage, might’ve provided the death that will pay for Jon’s life.

If, like me, you’d like to believe that Dany and Ghost share a connection, then perhaps Jon and Drogon do, too (after all, the name Drogon in Tolkien languages translates to ‘male wolf’).

These two dark-colored dragons (Drogon and Jon) were both just stabbed. A distraught Drogon conveniently takes Daenerys right to the berries that might’ve opened up a psychic connection between Jon and Daenerys…

Anyway. This theory is way too fun so it probably can’t be true. *sighs*

reading tags on my jonerys parallel edit i’ve made ages ago and…. ewww

not only is pol!jon extremely disgusting, it's also laughable to think that dany (out of ALL characters) would fall for a man's lies lmfao

"accepts marriage to gain power"

So you remember how this one guy sold his own sister to a brutal warlord as a bridal slave in exchange for an army, remarking,

"I'd let his whole khalasar fuck you if need be, sweet sister, all forty thousand men, and their horses too if that was what it took to get my army. Be grateful it is only Drogo. In time you may even learn to like him. Now dry your eyes. Illyrio is bringing him over, and he will not see you crying."

Welp, this apparently was Dany "accepting marriage to gain power." A post going around that discusses Dany passages in which antis twist, distort, and wildly misrepresent what happens, prompted the following to come to my mind as well. It seems to me that Sansa stans/Jonsas cannot deny GRRM is drawing connections between Dany and Jon as he tells their individual stories but they absolutely.cannot.be.parallels. Jon is Sansa's parallel! Dany must be the Evil Queen and Prince Jon's foil! The thing is, for that to be, some creative "retelling" is required.

This was written by a Jonsa/Stansa/Stark stan.

I really am quite taken aback by the boldness to outright lie like this about plot points of any piece of readily available media in a public forum, much less on a forum for discussion of the book being distorted to the nth degree here. Talk about telling on yourself as a fibber...

So take a look at this passage again...

"I'd let his whole khalasar fuck you if need be, sweet sister, all forty thousand men, and their horses too if that was what it took to get my army. Be grateful it is only Drogo. In time you may even learn to like him. Now dry your eyes. Illyrio is bringing him over, and he will not see you crying."

Take a lil read of this from Dany's very first chapter of ASOIAF...

The old woman washed her long, silver-pale hair and gently combed out the snags, all in silence. The girl scrubbed her back and her feet and told her how lucky she was. "Drogo is so rich that even his slaves wear golden collars. A hundred thousand men ride in his khalasar, and his palace in Vaes Dothrak has two hundred rooms and doors of solid silver." There was more like that, so much more, what a handsome man the khal was, so tall and fierce, fearless in battle, the best rider ever to mount a horse, a demon archer. Daenerys said nothing. She had always assumed that she would wed Viserys when she came of age. For centuries the Targaryens had married brother to sister, since Aegon the Conqueror had taken his sisters to bride. The line must be kept pure, Viserys had told her a thousand times; theirs was the kingsblood, the golden blood of old Valyria, the blood of the dragon. Dragons did not mate with the beasts of the field, and Targaryens did not mingle their blood with that of lesser men. Yet now Viserys schemed to sell her to a stranger, a barbarian. When she was clean, the slaves helped her from the water and toweled her dry. The girl brushed her hair until it shone like molten silver, while the old woman anointed her with the spiceflower perfume of the Dothraki plains, a dab on each wrist, behind her ears, on the tips of her breasts, and one last one, cool on her lips, down there between her legs. They dressed her in the wisps that Magister Illyrio had sent up, and then the gown, a deep plum silk to bring out the violet in her eyes. The girl slid the gilded sandals onto her feet, while the old woman fixed the tiara in her hair, and slid golden bracelets crusted with amethysts around her wrists. Last of all came the collar, a heavy golden torc emblazoned with ancient Valyrian glyphs. "Now you look all a princess," the girl said breathlessly when they were done. Dany glanced at her image in the silvered looking glass that Illyrio had so thoughtfully provided. A princess, she thought, but she remembered what the girl had said, how Khal Drogo was so rich even his slaves wore golden collars. She felt a sudden chill, and gooseflesh pimpled her bare arms.

And read the Jonsa's claim again:

kjkkljjl;k;,

Yeah, it sure sounds like Daenerys grew up as a spoiled, entitled heir-apparent princess rather than a Targaryen in-exile and constantly on the run (since birth) from Robert Baratheon's assassins.

Jon is my favourite character and growing up with the stigma of bastardy would have some scars that would probably never heal, yet he had one thing Dany never had growing up -- a home where he could grow up with (relative) stability. Dany grew up homeless. In exile. Jon did have a home and in that home, he received an education and a childhood. In Jon's situation, I think it does get a bit complicated because that stability comes with the price of his true identity and the steep consequences of bastardy. It's likewise true that Jon's place in that home was never 100% secure -- it's all at the mercy of the Stark in charge.

However, as long as Ned was there, Jon was there, and having one place for that long to call home was something Dany never really had, with siblings who loved her as much as Robb and Arya and Bran and Rickon loved Jon, with an education and games in a place she could feel more or less safe... The closest experience Dany has to that is when she lives with Ser Willem Darry in the house with the red door where Dany remembers she had her own room. However, right after his death, Dany and Viserys are thrown out and must return to wandering, begging, and struggling as homeless children in exile (and on the run) again whereupon Viserys becomes increasingly more resentful and abusive of Dany due to these situations.

And we learn all of this -- about Dany being sold to Drogo, about how Dany and Viserys grew up, about the house with the red door -- in Dany's first chapter. It's hard to believe people who make such claims about Dany like in the above screenshot did an honest-to-god read of even the first couple of chapters for characters who aren't Sansa Stark if they're trying to claim Dany accepted marriage to Khal Drogo to gain power. And grew up as a princess who believed she was heir to everything?! They're not even vaguely remembering episodes of the show because this doesn't even apply to Show!Dany either????

And power. Antis really hate Dany having power and she gets accused of getting power "too easily". Dany needs to be giving all that power to Sansa honestly, who still has no leadership arc, no experience with real world matters, and is two years younger because Sansa apparently has "queen foreshadowing" and said that one line about making people love her (that means she'll be a good queen, you guys). However, I'm still not sure what is easy about anything Dany has done between AGOT-ADWD, including conquering some of the oldest cities in this universe without dragons and using forces under her own command at age 14-15? But that's probably easier than planning Super Feast in the Vale, sure. I'd like to return to the original spirit of the screencap: Jon and Dany. This poster dislikes Jonerys and was invested in the Pol!Jon. Since this individual is inviting us to compare Jon and Dany, I think there is a comparison to be made. I don't think it's "Dany the entitled heir vs. Jon the dutiful follower" (you know, Jon, the guy who had childhood dreams of growing up to be a glorious conqueror). Rather, I think it is in how both Jon and Dany initially view the wildlings and Dothraki (savage, barbarian) and then how those views change (understanding, empathy, connection, friends/family). It's not only Jon who had to live with his "enemy" and understand his "enemy" (the enemy who is not actually the enemy), Dany was literally sold to the enemy and forced into that position. She either had to accept this new role or die. That is how Dany survives, by adapting to this new life, reaching into her capacity to connect, and understand. This is a key feature of her book 1 story.

But whenever such stans are confronted with passages stating otherwise to their claims...

I think one of the biggest indications that Sansa stans/Jonsas have gone off the rails wrt ASOIAF is that they seriously present Dany's being sold as a child bride into slavery by her own brother as a choice a 13-year old Dany made herself.