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I am one of them. I am a staunch sentimonster Adrien denier and I absolutely HATE the possibility of Adrien being sentimonster, and now I am scared for Felix too!

There is about only one specific theory that makes some sense where I'd probably be OK with Adrien being a sentimonster but even that has it problems when looked further into.

I say this because we might be getting something related to senitmonsters based on some of the clues others have pointed out but I feel its going to foreshadow a twist of a twist, like leading the audience and/or the character astray/one direction/to a red herring only for something to then be revealed as something else, like maybe a character thinking he is a sentimonster only to be revealed something else sentimonster etc.

Or maybe its going to be something like that not related to sentimonsters.

Like maybe foreshadowing/hinting at something else in the future that the audience may not understand yet and so they start developing these theories.

It is like one part of Felix and Gabriel's dialogue in "Gabriel Agreste," in front of the Emilie portrait. It suggests that Felix may be a sentimonster of some sort and that Gabriel is willing to end his existence if he doesn't comply with Gabriel, but simultaneously (maybe moreso) it suggests the same but without Gabriel "confirming" himself to be Shadow Moth [- some people thought it was suggesting this but I felt like it wasn't, but it could be taken as such] and implying Felix thinks he is a sentimonster. It would just be saying that Gabe is already powerful enough and doesn't have to be Shadow Moth in order to destroy Felix's life if he doesn't give him the twin ring (his wedding ring) back.

Its such well written, dubious and scary piece of dialogue!

And Gabriel got out of the whole ordeal thinking he got Felix of his case about Shadow Moth while Felix was one step ahead of him.

That piece of dialogue feels like it is written in way to heavily suggest that Felix is a sentimonster but not outright confirm it.

While I hate the theory of Felix being a sentimonster along with the senti Adrien, he has some convincing evidence for this compared to the senti Adrien theory.

I took a break from writing this post at the end of paragraph and came back to it later and now I am not quite in the same headspace as I was when I was when first writing this but this is pretty much everything what I wanted to say.

So to reiterate: I am a very firm denier of the senti Adrien theory as well as the senti Felix theory and I'd hate for both or either to happen, but for better or for worse I fear something is going to happen.

So, how many of you are out there that still simply deny the Sentimonster theory with all your being?

might be a hot take but “marinette/ladybug’s actions hurt adrien and she could/should learn to be more gentle” and “marinette dupain-cheng has been tossed an incredibly stressful and heavy role without any choice in the matter and no means of getting out of it (without losing all of her memories and passing the responsibility and burden on to someone else) and is doing the best she can to make what she, a fourteen-year-old with no current guidance, believes are the best decisions for the team” are two truths that coexist

Thinking very hard about the role reversals in the lovesquare and how it’s going to affect season 5-

Marinette has always had trouble hiding her feelings. This is a plot point! She cant contain her fawning over Adrien most of the time, and usually can’t not speak up when Chloe or Lila bother her. She likes expressing herself, and she says what she thinks is right. It’s definitely a character trait of hers. 

And, she avoided Luka when they broke up not because of anything he did, or how it ended, but because seeing Luka would bring on much too strong of emotions for her to handle for a while.

You see this in Ephemeral, too, before she started to accept Adrien as Chat she avoided any confrontation as even seeing an image of Adrien elicited too strong emotions for her to handle at that moment. 

In a more negative example, look at all her failsafes to make sure she doesn’t know Chat’s identity. She’s trying to avoid Chat Blanc, avoid what she think caused it. Some of her favorite coping mechanisms are avoidance, distance, “think about it later after you’re done.” She needs time to process things, she’s had to compartmentalize so much of her life it takes time to unpack it, time she doesn’t usually have. It’s made her careful but it’s also made her solutions complex. 

So how do you think she is going to handle not being able to trust Adrien? She’ll need to take her time, she’ll be heartbroken she can’t fully think of Adrien in her old light. She’ll avoid him.

The last conversation that Adrien knows Marinette and him had is the one about his situation, about his father. He was already hesitant to share his feelings under the influence of Risk, but…

I think there is a very good chance Adrien is going to assume Marinette is avoiding him because of what he said about his situation and his father. He’s very used to people not meaning what they say (Félix said he’ll help him, huh? His father sure doesn’t show he cares sometimes, huh?). He’ll assume Marinette said she understands to be nice, but ultimately, he made her uncomfortable with dumping his issues on her. And if Marinette, one of the nicest classmates in his school, can’t face him after what he said, then no one else can either. 

So he’ll shut up, even though his father seems more erratic than ever, even with Nathalie’s declining health, even with Lila becoming more and more a part of his daily life. Maybe even if wielding so many miraculous causes Gabriel to be even more ignoring, or stricter, or angrier, or if his standards for Adrien become more unreachable, or he becomes so much more controlling…

What he thought was true. No one wants to listen to his problems. He just has to keep his head low, and focus on supporting Ladybug. If he doesn’t draw attention to himself, it’ll all be fine.

Yes this exactly! They didn’t lose feelings for the other, but because of everything they went through, both believe that being with the other’s alter ego is just not meant to be and thus began showing more attention to the other and their growing feelings for them!

Oh wait are people non-ironically saying that the love square is reversed?

I mean, sure, it may seem like it. Marinette and Adrien may think it is. But let's get real:

Chat Noir didn't reject Ladybug intentionally; he literally misunderstood her

When Marinette says to Luka that "she doesn't hear any melody" for Adrien, Luka replies that "maybe there is too much noise around her to hear it properly." Which, very much is the case. Between her guilt for losing the Miracle Box and her growing feelings for Chat Noir, of course Marinette may think that she isn't in love with Adrien anymore. But she still acts as weird and clumsy as usual around him (totally not the way she is with Luka), which likely means that she still has feelings for him.

So if anything, the love square is disintegrating, or becoming a line or a circle or whatever you want to call it. But the reversing is not permanent.

I LIVE for the contrast between Adrien realising he is in love with Marinette and Marinette realising she is in love with Chat Noir.

Adrien: I think I am in love.

Literally the next scene, Marinette:

Marinette: It's a disaster, I think I am falling in love.

For Adrien, realising that he loves Marinette is wonderful! Of course he loves his very good friend Marinette, who else would he??!

But Marinette is absolutely devasted by the realisation that she loves Chat Noir. Maybe she feels like she has failed on her duty as Ladybug to not let her emotions impact her work. Maybe she feels guilty for rejecting Adrien's love just to realise that she is in love with Chat Noir. In any case, it really pains her.

If we take a step back; in the last four seasons, it was Adrien who was suffering of his love for Ladybug. He cried over her in Glaciator 2. Loving Ladybug pained him, while Marinette, albeit somewhat disturbed by her fear of rejection, hadn't suffered as much so far. Maybe she was repressing it, but that's not the point.

The point is, seems like whoever likes the superhero gets their heart crushed: their duties prevent them from knowing the identity of the person they love (hence causing the whole love square schenanigans) or from loving them freely due to distraction, or worse, risk of destroying the world.

I feel like a broken record since I keep repeating that it is their superhero duties that cause them all the pain, but it seriously is. I think the writers are preparing the base for the Kwamiis Choice, where Tikki and Plagg also realise that and decide to free them from the burden of being superheroes.

I can only hope the new Paris special won't force Marinette/ Toxinelle into the role of the "chaotic baddest bitch" for superficial praise and keeping Adrien/ Griffe Noire as nothing but her unconditional support again and the "good" one. Because literally from the way the powers of Ladybug and Chat Noir work that's bullshit and the MUCH weaker story premise character wise.

Toxinelle has no offensive powers. She can be as smart as she wants in this scenario her powers are needed for AFTER the Butterfly akumatized someone to save the city, so she can prevent said saving from happening.

Griffe Noire would be required to first nuke the city so the butterfly can react to something and that means alternative Adrien/ Griffe Noire would - the longer all that went on - have needed to let go of all morality he once had and agree to become the moster of the two so SHE can remain level headed and get the Butterfly from the hero.

That's still alot of pressure and burden on Toxinelle's shoulders, being the one who has to be the light at the end of the tunnel for both of them to get their happy ending in a better world. But for the love of God, Adrien throwing out his humanity and only holding onto her and his dead mother

If this is to be believed:

Is ALOT worse and fitting as the conflict's heart piece.

I can only hope the special will be reasonable enough that Toxinelle will be the lesser evil of ShadyClaw and not waste so much story potential for another round of "Chloé the awful bitch". There is so much more interesting stuff you can do with Marinette than that, especially in the Toxinelle field.

Already as Ladybug Marinette showcases extremely dangerous anti-hero tendencies where she becomes so strategic that everyone involved stops being human beings or mattering in the moment because she needs to get something important done.

Most crucial examples are how Emilie Agreste's dead body was used as a mere inhuman tool by her in "Recreation" to defeat her insane husband, by cataclysming the lift and letting it crash down on Emilie to force Gabriel to stand still. Only though that Marinette then barely gave Gabriel enough time to throw the lift sideways and he only managed to save himself and Emilie from being crushed in the nick of time.

Or you know, all of Marinette's horrifying plan in "Destruction" that put several life in danger by sending Monarque to helpless civilians (even to ANNOY HIM) and Chat Noir was literally turned into a non-human object served on a silver plate to Monarque. He couldn't move an inch like a human is to be expected or even BREATH while Monarque went to grab for his throat while Marinette herself stood save and sound in the back because all she actually thought about in that plan were the Kwamis and herself (not even bringing up how fucked up it was to not even let Chat Noir know that her plan involves him having to possibly live with having cataclysmed a person.)

Everyone else MONARQUE had to keep save in her plan by not being the awful and sadistic monster they thought him to be. Tolerating all kinds of disrespectful bullshit and not using any Second chance or other miraculous powers besides voyage, or for the lols quartering Chat Noir's statue for example in a second's notice.

Marinette's plan in "Destruction" was horrifying and impossibly irresponsible in how she instinctively dehumanized everyone but herself and the Kwamis in it without noticing it and 100% relied on MONARQUE to be a decent and reasonable enough person underneath so she could get away with the insane endangerment and dehumanization of everyone but herself (especially Chat Noir).

Her final battle with Monarque had Marinette come back to this questionable morality when she pulled a low-blow anti hero move by dragging the dead spouse of the villain further into the fight, and risking to take any human dignity away from Emilie's remainings - who never wanted any of this being done in her name - by making it GABRIEL'S job to save and preserve her from Bug Noire.

Marinette 100% has some serious anti-hero tendencies in how she dehumanizes people sometimes as side-effect of her strategic mind and when she's either to caught up in her head or she thinks her goal justifies the means.

Jfc, quit the bullshit and let Toxinelle be the escalation of that side of Marinette because she and Adrien know their identities this time around - truly THEM against the world - and she's stuck in a position where Adrien was forced to let go of his humanity and other emotional attachments for their cause, is way too far gone by now and she has to make sure they actually win so all of this wasn't for nothing.

Give me a Marinette/ Toxinelle who made it out of her having been bullied alot worse and that's how she got into this, but by now she deep down fully regrets ever having started this and wished with every inch of her heart she could stop

but she knows she herself already hardly could live with herself after all this so she would never ask Adrien/ Griffe Noire to let go of the only hope he has at this point and live with the fact that he became an actual monster to preserve HER humanity, so she can save them both with the wish.

A Toxinelle who believes they already went too far to possibly go back and because of that she detaches herself from morality in the way it happened in "Recreation" with Emilie because in her (and Adrien's) mind they only have to win and everything will be okay again.

Adrien won't be a monster anymore and will return all together to the boy she once loved - and only still behaves like around Marinette or while thinking of his mother - and Paris, it's citizens, the entire world and THEMSELVES wont remember anymore what happened or that Toxinelle and Griffe Noire ever did any of this to them.

Give me TAHT Marinette/ Toxinelle please. For the love of GOD.

Can you imagine if Gabriel hadn’t changed the rings out in “Felix” and Felix had taken the one that controlled Adrien 👀

I thought both rings have control.

Honestly I’m not entirely sure how it works.

Did the ring Felix steal control Adrien or both of them

Felix is fucken valid okay

Joke’s on you canon, I love each of these three completely different boys.

Hi. What's your take on people saying that ladrien is toxic because they only view each other as their "perfect" selves?

*Watches Ladrien mutually trip all over themselves trying to appear smooth in front of their crush*

*Watches how Ladrien scenes seem to almost always highlight the similarities between Adrien and Marinette in these moments*

*Sees how Ladrien scenes are Cat Noir facing his crush without the shield of his secret identity*

*Sees how Ladrien scenes are Marinette facing her crush with a shield of a secret identity*

So, hot take: Ladrien is actually just Adrinette from Marinette's perspective and Ladynoir from Adrien's perspective. "Ladrinette" doesn't exist by itself, so how could it possibly have traits that the other corners of the lovesquare don't?

Also, if anyone tries to come at me with that "Marinette idolizes Adrien" and "Adrien idolizes Ladybug" stuff I'll just say: they saw each other at their most awkward before they ever fell in love with the other, they romanticize each other now because they fell in love with those imperfect selves first and decided that they could love those less perfect parts of them as well.

Marinette decided that the Adrien who let somebody accuse him of bullying just to take the flack for a childhood friend was kind rather than a pathetic doormat. Adrien decided that the Ladybug who wanted to quit at the slightest difficulty but still managed to pick herself up again was caring rather than a pathetic flake. They saw the most pathetic parts of each other and, rather than pitying them, they fell in love.